warren 190/75 or 190/30???

Most people who are big into towing don't go with 190s. That is just too much fuel and it will be smokey, or you will have to pull a ton of fuel to even make it possible to tow something that heavy. 190s will haul butt!!! But not a lot of weight, unless you can clean them up with a larger turbo charger and more air flow. Although to a certain extent once you get so big on the turbocharger you will have more lag and it will be easier to get under the turbo and it will make towing and egts even worse.


Also what do you have done to the truck so far?
Head studs?
Bulletproff?
Any updates?
Oil cooler?
EGR?
Tranny?



Maybe I can ask this question. Why 190s? Is it for racing and/or dyno... or are you under the impression that it will tow more?

I don't have a tow queen but I heavy followed many people on this forum and bigger is not always better unless you have LOTS OF MONEY!!!

155/30 and a stage 1 turbo has proven to be a great tow combo. You can actually floor it up hill on a good tune. With 190s you will have to be constantly watching your egts, pulling fuel from the tune, and with a big turbo that can actually clean up your 190s you will lug the motor and fall under the turbo and also have much more turbo lag. No reason to get a giant injector that will just have a ton of fuel pulled on it... Unless you are looking for a major dual purpose truck??? Or if you have a ton of money!





IMO 190/30s, compound turbos, head studded and complete bullet proof, ported intake, ported heads, aftermarket air intake, complete fuel system, regulated return, water/meth injection, a fresh hpop (needs to be in good condition), a built tranny etc.. etc.. This would be one mean towing machine

Or you could just do 155/30 and a stage 1 and have almost the same towing ability rofl:like 60mph uphill instead of 90 mph uphill :rofl

windrunner408 said:

If you're towing frequently, then I'm not sure why you are looking at 190cc injectors and a dinky turbo like a Stage 1/Powermax. I guess it all depends on the weight you're looking to yank around. I have 190/100s, and I couldn't imagine trying to tow with these injectors and a Stage 1. On Eric's Xtreme X, I could 1800F EGTs before 80 mph empty and I don't see the point in getting 190s and then cramping down the injector's ability to flow just to say you have 190s. I guess, what I would recommend is if you go with 190s, then get at least 50% nozzles as 30% nozzles (like stock) are going to be too small.

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exactly :thumb:

shu873 said:

Guys it sounds to me like the OP is towing well in excess of 10,000 lbs several times a week. I personally don't know why he would be considering 190's with any nozzle for a truck that does this. I know he wants a truck that plays too, but I think that's demanding a lot. It's doable, but not as easy as slapping on a powermax and having a tune emailed to you.

OP, if you HAVE to have 190's go with the smaller nozzle. If it was me I'd stay down around 155's, maybe stretch it to 175's with a small nozzle. IMHO no need for more than that with a small single VGT towing as much as you do. I would also recommend live tuning.

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What this guy said

blacknasty6.0 said:

Haha well that's exactly what I needed to know the 175/30s are looking to be what it's gunna be now I just need a turbo that's compatible with it for the loads I pull ideas anyone?

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To really clean up a race tune on 175/30 you would need a pretty big turbo IMO. Like a stage 3 (68mm). This all depends on your supporting mods because 175s require a lot of air flow ported intake, water/met, etc will also help. Now with a big turbo you will have more turbo lag which is not ideal for towing (it can lug the motor while cruising, cause high egts, take forever to spool). Many have run the 175s and a stage 1 on a race tune but they could hit 1800s on the egts which gets really high really fast.


The original stage 2 from MTW is no longer available, there are other stage 2s out on the market but they are relatively new and I don't have much personal knowledge on them but I am sure some people will chime in. Also the hybrid might end up being discontinued


155/30 would pair really well with a stage 1 from Mad Turbo Werks. Many have reported this combo to be a towing monster... jetjock15 has this setup and he has reported that it does great!

6.0 - Stage 1




Now these are just my opinions about turbo setups for racing purposes... for towing it is a little different... but this should give you an idea of how they turbos pair with injectors on race tunes with regards to actually cleaning up the smoke/injectors. Now any turbo can run with any injector but it might get laggy if the turbo is too big and smokey if the turbo is too small.


stock injectors = stage 1 or powermax 63.5

155/stock = stage 1 63.5mm is slightly too small but stage2/hybrid 64.7 is a little too big???

155/30 = hybrid/stage 2

175/stock = stage 3 68mm is slightly too big but stage2/hybrid 64.7 is a little too small???

175/30 = stage 3 68mm

Six0~Stroker said:

I have 175/30's and a Hybrid... Having slight towing issues with heat! Drives great when empty though.

I dynoed 590 and 603 HP on Saturday but realistically I am probably at like 520 more likely!

I don't think you will be losing much with the 155 and stage 1 turbo compared to my setup.. you might be saving yourself from a fuel system, ported intake, and a TRANSMISSION if you go with 155's....


These 175's like to eat trannies LOL.

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175s and a mid size turbo = towing problems

kdogg85 said:

Or versus he hawing around with the little stuff. Step up and run 205's with compounds and have 500 horsepower to tow with, and 600+ to play with. That's assuming you don't have a dead injector now and need it repaired.

Why have studs and all that, plus still possibly needing a transmission, all that money for a meager return.

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awesome build but it will be a lot of work and money... you gotta pay to play!!! I will most likely end up with some sort of combo like this one. But it will take a lot of time, money, and research.

SickStroke6.0 said:

I towed 13,000 pounds on a regular basis with my 190/75's and PowerMax. EGT's were manageable, as long as you didn't floor it up a hill. Using tow/haul helps as well, because it will downshift earlier and lower EGT's.

I think 190/30's and a billet 68mm PowerMax or a MTW Stage 3 turbo would be awesome.

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Read between the lines... manageable is not the same as optimal

fordfan30 said:

I have his 190/30s installed and with ported and polished heads and a ported intake i have no trouble hitting 1600 unloaded i havent tried to haul anything but a$$

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1600 egts unloaded equals way too hot while loaded down... you would have to detune the truck... or just go with a smaller injector

windrunner408 said:

If you're towing frequently, then I'm not sure why you are looking at 190cc injectors and a dinky turbo like a Stage 1/Powermax. I guess it all depends on the weight you're looking to yank around. I have 190/100s, and I couldn't imagine trying to tow with these injectors and a Stage 1. On Eric's Xtreme X, I could 1800F EGTs before 80 mph empty and I don't see the point in getting 190s and then cramping down the injector's ability to flow just to say you have 190s. I guess, what I would recommend is if you go with 190s, then get at least 50% nozzles as 30% nozzles (like stock) are going to be too small.

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you would need bigger than a stage 1 to clean up 190s... but then you have to worry about turbo lag and lugging the motor (getting underneath the turbo) which makes towing hard

shu873 said:

Guys it sounds to me like the OP is towing well in excess of 10,000 lbs several times a week. I personally don't know why he would be considering 190's with any nozzle for a truck that does this. I know he wants a truck that plays too, but I think that's demanding a lot. It's doable, but not as easy as slapping on a powermax and having a tune emailed to you.

OP, if you HAVE to have 190's go with the smaller nozzle. If it was me I'd stay down around 155's, maybe stretch it to 175's with a small nozzle. IMHO no need for more than that with a small single VGT towing as much as you do. I would also recommend live tuning.

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190s is hard to tow with... but your truck will be very fast...

06-6.0 stoker said:

Tuning is the biggest tool when trying to make large injectors and nozzles drive able. Any injector/nozzle combo can be made drive able with tuning.


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IMO You can turn down injectors to a certain extent... but if you are just going to turn them down then start with something that will better suit your needs

PGreenSVT said:

For towing your kind of weight the Stage1 with 155/30's is a proven combination however the Powermax with a billet wheel and 175/30's would be a workable combo as well. Don't go bigger than you can use because pulling fuel from a big injector to keep egt's and smoke down will result in less torque than a smaller injector that you can run a longer pulse width on. Bigger isn't always better.

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:thumb:

william_ace said:

^^ If thats the case then I would definitly stick with 155/30s or 175/30s. You will be able to tow to full capacity with a good tow tune and will be able to have some fun around town with a race tune. 190s won't work in this situation.

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:thumb:

Pro fuzz said:

I pull 15000 lb ( 41 ft toy hauler ) flat ground w/ 155/stock & powermax billet wheel on Eric's heavy tow tune steady 1000-1200 egts!! I wouldn't want any bigger injectors on my set up !!

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:thumb:

Adamv7010 said:

This should be the only answer.

Hell I've towed some with 205s and a stock turbo @ pretty much sea level with a good tow file. Driving sensibly I didn't see much over 1000-1200*


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You can put any combo together... detune it... drive sensibly... and manage to keep your egts down and will actually make it to your destination. But no one is saying 205s and a stock turbo is optimal

Well I wanted to post here because when I first got my 175/75 injectors I was pretty skeptical and posted some negative reviews. I thought I liked my 175/stock better. But now that I have tuning and a turbo figured out I am loving this setup for a dd, racing, dyno, track. But I have yet to test it with a heavy load up any big hills. I should be testing that pretty soon.


Some of my issues with running hot were mainly due to tuning and running an experimental gt4088 turbine wheel that melted and causedthe turbo to run bad.



My cruising temps at 70mph with 175/stock were 700-800
My cruising temps at 70pmh with 175/75 are 780-880

Full Fuel Tunes 0-100mph
WOT with 175/stock and a stage 1 - 1800+
WOT with 175/stock and a KC 68mm (stage 3) - 1250-1400
WOT with 175/75 and a KC 68mm (stage 3) - 1450-1600

Also remember I am running very few air cooling mods. I am sure an air filter, ported intake, intercooler, etc... would help bring those numbers down a little. Also I wanted to point out that every truck will be slightly different.


I would imagine adding 30 nozzles would fall somewhere right in the middle of those data points... I know this is for 190s but maybe this will help.

04cr450 said:

How much bigger is the stage 2 compared to a stock p-max? what are the spec?

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What is weird is that as far as i understand it the difference between the stage 1/pmax and the stage 2 is very small.


63.5x88 vs 64.7x88

That means that each of the blades is about .6mm longer on each of the inducer blades. That is about half the size of a paper clip. The exducer is the same size.


If you put the two wheels next together I am not sure you could tell the difference just by looking at them...



Although I have never had a hybrid or stage 2 to actually open up and or compare :dunno:

Just to clarify a few things... not that it matters much.

The MTW stage 2 is not offered anymore and was a great turbo. I will explain the differences between the barder and mtw just for clarification


Mtw stage 2

.72ar comp cover
64.7x88 comp
72x66 turbine 13 blade


Barder stage 2

.58 comp cover
64.7x88 comp wheel
72x66 10 blade turbine wheel


The mtw stage 2 is not offered anymore because the desirable .72ar comp covers were hard to come by and got very expensive