[SSSS]

The def injection is after the exhaust particulate filter aka catalytic converter. They replaced my def injector gave it back to me 2 day's had it towed back to the dealer and they tell me 13000 for the exhaust particulate filter sensors and any ** they broke and didn't want to pay for ** these ford dealers.

In relation to my situation: where are the sensors that would detect the inefficiency for my P0420 code ? Is one BEFORE the Cat/DPF (I don't think they are the same physical piece of equipment) and one AFTER the DEF injector ? In that case the fix would make sense. Need a nice diagram. (I will create one as I discover - but I am hoping someone knows).

 

[SSSS]

Here is an excellent video. Obviously this isn't a 6.7l PowerStroke, but I believe it represents the identical components and flow.

DOC-DPF-DEF Inject-SCR

So - my question now is - on the 6.7l PowerStroke - when a P0420 code is generated (Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)) where are the two sensors located that determine the inefficiency ? Are the two sensors before and after the DOC, or is the first sensor before the DOC and the second sensor after one of the other downstream components ?

 

[Kaakau620]

Your exhaust diagram.

 

[SSSS]

Your exhaust diagram.

I've seen that diagram, but wasn't sure it was right. It's different than in the video. I was sort of assuming that there was some logic to the order in which different emission treatments were applied, and hence ALL diesel systems followed the same order.

OK - so if that diagram is correct - where are the two sensors that generate the P0420 code (Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1) located ?

(Thanks)

 

[Kaakau620]

I've seen that diagram, but wasn't sure it was right. It's different than in the video. I was sort of assuming that there was some logic to the order in which different emission treatments were applied, and hence ALL diesel systems followed the same order.

OK - so if that diagram is correct - where are the two sensors that generate the P0420 code (Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1) located ?

(Thanks)

EGT 11 and 12. After a burn it calculates the temp difference between the two, if not in range it will set a fault. If you have a bad egt 11, 12, iat, maf it will interfere with the calculation, setting a code.

 

[SSSS]

EGT 11 and 12. After a burn it calculates the temp difference between the two, if not in range it will set a fault. If you have a bad egt 11, 12, iat, maf it will interfere with the calculation, setting a code.

Thank you for the second diagram !

OK - I feel I am getting closer.

In the diagram it looks like EGT12 is before the reductant injector.

So if EGT11 and 12 are used to determine DTC P0420, then would you agree (or disagree) that replacing the reductant injector shouldn't fix a P0420 DTC code ?

Or - maybe the ECM uses EGT11 and EGT12 AND the NOx sensor further downstream to determine efficiency ? That would explain why a reductant injector might be the fix for a P0420.

 

[Kaakau620]

Thank you for the second diagram !

OK - I feel I am getting closer.

In the diagram it looks like EGT12 is before the reductant injector.

So if EGT11 and 12 are used to determine DTC P0420, then would you agree (or disagree) that replacing the reductant injector shouldn't fix a P0420 DTC code ?

Or - maybe the ECM uses EGT11 and EGT12 AND the NOx sensor further downstream to determine efficiency ? That would explain why a reductant injector might be the fix for a P0420.

No, the injector has nothing to do with the calculation since it's after the DOC. It takes data from the intake air temp, mass air flow, egt 11 and 12, then determines if that number is within spec of being "efficient", In simple terms.

 

[SSSS]

.

No, the injector has nothing to do with the calculation since it's after the DOC. It takes data from the intake air temp, mass air flow, egt 11 and 12, then determines if that number is within spec of being "efficient", In simple terms.

Thank you ! This is what I was unfortunately suspecting. I think all the dealer did was reset the DTC code, and it seems like it will re-appear on the next re-gen.

BTW: where do you get these docs ?

 

[Heavy_GD]

I would love to. How do you pass emissions in a state - Colorado - with emissions testing ?

Sorry, after that post that user isnt welcome here anymore.

You are doing great learning and making moves with the dealer, do not get side tracked by someone with little useful information to add.

 

[Kaakau620]

Sorry, after that post that user isnt welcome here anymore.

You are doing great learning and making moves with the dealer, do not get side tracked by someone with little useful information to add.

I saw that post and I knew he was done

 

[SSSS]

Sorry, after that post that user isnt welcome here anymore.

You are doing great learning and making moves with the dealer, do not get side tracked by someone with little useful information to add.

Sorry - I am a newbie.

My intent here is to learn, get this fixed, and then make this information available to other users who may have the same problem.

Of all the places I have looked - this forum has been the ONLY one able to even start to help.

 

[Heavy_GD]

Of all the places I have looked - this forum has been the ONLY one able to even start to help.

No need to be sorry, my job is to make sure your last statement is always true.

Well that and top notch sarcasm with the best memes in the game, you get the point.

Like I said stay on track.

 

[SSSS]

OK - based on what I have learned in this forum and presented to the dealer, the dealer has essentially admitted that the new DEF injector (even if it was needed) couldn't have fixed the P0420 DTC, and all they did to address P0420 was reset the DTC/CEL. The next DPF regen will re-calibrate, and the P0420 DTC code could return. Driven long enough - the vehicle could enter limp mode on the side of the road somewhere.

I asked the dealer to force a regen - but they can't because it isn't in the Ford flowchart. Which really means any time they spend doing this - they won't get paid for.

I can force a regen myself, but at this point I'm not touching ANYTHING which could give Ford the opportunity to come back and say the customer was messing with the vehicle themselves.

I've insisted they contact Ford TAC for advice on what to do next.

To be continued.....

 

[Kaakau620]

OK - based on what I have learned in this forum and presented to the dealer, the dealer has essentially admitted that the new DEF injector (even if it was needed) couldn't have fixed the P0420 DTC, and all they did to address P0420 was reset the DTC/CEL. The next DPF regen will re-calibrate, and the P0420 DTC code could return. Driven long enough - the vehicle could enter limp mode on the side of the road somewhere.

I asked the dealer to force a regen - but they can't because it isn't in the Ford flowchart. Which really means any time they spend doing this - they won't get paid for.

I can force a regen myself, but at this point I'm not touching ANYTHING which could give Ford the opportunity to come back and say the customer was messing with the vehicle themselves.

I've insisted they contact Ford TAC for advice on what to do next.

To be continued.....

Kidding me....

 

[SSSS]

Kidding me....

I wish I was.

 

[Heavy_GD]

I asked the dealer to force a regen - but they can't because it isn't in the Ford flowchart. Which really means any time they spend doing this - they won't get paid for.

this is 100% accurate, and also why dealer techs are terrible at troubleshooting.

People hate when I say this...
If you are financially able, while you have them on their heels you could negotiate a trade to a newer model.

 

[SSSS]

this is 100% accurate, and also why dealer techs are terrible at troubleshooting.

People hate when I say this...
If you are financially able, while you have them on their heels you could negotiate a trade to a newer model.

I don't want to go down the legal road, but I think that is my next step, if they don't come back today with a solution.

The service manager at the dealer seems genuinely concerned. I honestly feel he is working to fix this issue - but says his hands are tied. I don't really believe this: if their techs fail to competently diagnose and fix an in-warranty issue, it seems they should be willing to eat some of the cost in getting it right.

If I was Ford Corporate - I'd be p*ssed at the dealer. The dealer has charged Ford over $9000 - so far.....

This is my first Ford. I've had the normal issues with other vehicles over the years - and they have always been addressed - sometimes even out of warranty.

I have never ever encountered anything like these policies at Ford.

 

[Heavy_GD]

I have never ever encountered anything like these policies at Ford.

For clarity, have you ever owned a Diesel with emissions in all of that experience?

Its an unfortunate life for some.

 

[SSSS]

Nope. I am old(er) and this WAS my dream truck. I am learning.

I know the EPA mandates the emission stuff - but it's Ford's responsibility to produce something that works when they sell an $80k vehicle.

 

[Heavy_GD]

Thats fair.

My humble opinion is that all manufactures have been struggling with the emissions mandates and as such there are very few techs who are capable of solving complex issues because they are limited by the process.

In that if a diesel truck is not under warranty I would never take it to a dealer.