This morning a contractor who I work for has an 09 F350 with the 6.4 that now needs a new engine. It's his daily driver and does some towing and hauling but nothing serious. At lunch time I meet him back at the shop and see his truck running with a dead miss and a ton of crank case pressure both out of oil fill and dip stick. The truck is maintained to the tee and has been egr and dpf deleted for 2 years now, just running a 65hp tow tune. We tow it to ford and receive a phone call the the motor needs replaced. Just over 18 grand I believe the number was. Had 132,000 miles. He is going to run it until warranty is just about up, then selling it and going to gm from now on. I spoke to one of the techs and all he does is 6.4 engine replacements all day long. He said there is not really a way to "bullet proof the engine" and that there are a lot of shortcomings in the design of the engine in the valvetrain, fuel system, and other areas. So anybody have some actual luck with these things or what? I guess diesels don't have to be reliable anymore according to ford from 08-10?
SixOhPowerstroke
Any 6.4's here with over 150,000 miles on original engine?
I'm not sure what short comings he has, but there are a lot of higher mile 6.4's
Its a sure **** better than the ****ing 6.0
Its a sure **** better than the ****ing 6.0
Have 208k but believe I have a lifter gone. Full emissions was on until 172k or 178k, seems so long ago. Everything else checks out good. Kind of surprised that it was well maintained and yet still have problems. I thought that was the main key to keep these things going and there great power plants. Do they know what the actual problem is?
The 2 major problems are lifters and pistons. Despite what everyone things head gaskets really aren't a major concern unless pushed hard. The most common major failure would be piston issues. Either melted down by a hung injector or a straight up crack. The design of the piston itself is the problem along with faulty casting from Ford. This sounds like the problem your friend has and a lot of shops will say f it and throw a motor at it. In many cases its the same price to bore out the cylinder (provided there isn't any major damage) and throw oversize delipped and coated pistons in. While doing this throw a stage 2 cam in...
The stage 2 cam solves the other major problem with both the 6.0 and 6.4... Lifters! The cam itself can cause the lifters to "hop" due to the ramp up on the lobe. Over time its pretty obvious what happens. This combined with premature wearing of the rocker tips makes for a pretty big problem.
There are other issues pertaining to the hpfp and oil cooler, but those can be avoided through proper maintenance. The radiators are known to leak along with hoses and fittings but those rarely damage the motor (aside from front cover issues... but by now most of those have been replaced).
The issues that the 6.4 has all stem from emissions. In a de-tuned medium duty application they fare VERY well. They also don't have to adhere to as many emissions standards then. But in our application not only do these failures tend to take a motor out, but as in your friends case its going to cost damn near as much to rebuild as it would to replace. If you replace it through ford you are out 18 grand and have a warranty. But none of the issues have been fixed in any way shape or form. Nor will they build the motor the way you want.
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you can tell him to do the smart thing here (if he is going to keep the truck) :nod:
Find an independent powerstroke shop and have them build the motor. IF the block is savable he is looking at anywhere from 10-15 grand... Still cheaper than ford and any reputable shop will offer some form of warranty or guarantee. If he wants to get rid of the truck then by all means... Let ford do it so he can sell it with a warranty.
The stage 2 cam solves the other major problem with both the 6.0 and 6.4... Lifters! The cam itself can cause the lifters to "hop" due to the ramp up on the lobe. Over time its pretty obvious what happens. This combined with premature wearing of the rocker tips makes for a pretty big problem.
There are other issues pertaining to the hpfp and oil cooler, but those can be avoided through proper maintenance. The radiators are known to leak along with hoses and fittings but those rarely damage the motor (aside from front cover issues... but by now most of those have been replaced).
The issues that the 6.4 has all stem from emissions. In a de-tuned medium duty application they fare VERY well. They also don't have to adhere to as many emissions standards then. But in our application not only do these failures tend to take a motor out, but as in your friends case its going to cost damn near as much to rebuild as it would to replace. If you replace it through ford you are out 18 grand and have a warranty. But none of the issues have been fixed in any way shape or form. Nor will they build the motor the way you want.
Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrr you can tell him to do the smart thing here (if he is going to keep the truck) :nod:
Find an independent powerstroke shop and have them build the motor. IF the block is savable he is looking at anywhere from 10-15 grand... Still cheaper than ford and any reputable shop will offer some form of warranty or guarantee. If he wants to get rid of the truck then by all means... Let ford do it so he can sell it with a warranty.
Well apparently an injector "hung" open as you said and burnt a hole in the piston so bad to the point where the crankshaft was visible. Also both cylinder heads are bad due to wore out valve guides as well.
There are a few reasons that these motors have so many issues....
#1 EMISSIONS!!!!
#2 Design in cost cutting....
What I mean by #2 is that the cost cutting makes them affordable to the manufacturer. Yes there are NO valve guides, but guess what??? that's been around for decades now. Lack of maintenance will cause the guide to wallow out. The 6.4 is also somewhat interesting because it doesn't have wrist pin bearings. Its rod on pin contact with oil being the only barrier. The 6.4 also repurposes the 6.0 bottom end, with a bigger bore and stroke. They also cut cost on the pistons in these trucks, but International used different slugs that don't fail. All of this add up to a mass produced engine that wasn't destin to live long, but long enough to make it through warranty periods.
There is also a HUGE factor NOBODY talks about, and that's the relationship between Ford and Int. When the 6.4 came out originally International was NOT going to supply ford with them. The argument on whose fault the 6.0 was, was in full swing and Int. said f-off to Ford. Ford took Int to court about the contract they were under to produce and supply engines for Ford for the next 2 years (08-10) and the judge agreed and forced Int. to supply and honor the contract. I have talked to several Ford techs now that were there when this all went down, and the amount of 6.4's they had come in from Int. with issues was scary. They had to re-do a lot of things on some of these motors. Unfortunately Int really didn't care about the builds of these 6.4's as they new Ford would be dealing with the warranty issues not them directly, and with the writing on the wall as far as a law suit coming about the 6.0, they were all but down with Ford. Sucks for us as consumers, but that's why Ford is no longer working with Int....a relation ship that spanned from 1984-2010.
I will also add quickly, that a hung injector (long enough to burn a whole in a slug) was operator error. Take it from a guy that just hung an injector open during a sled pull and melted cyl3's piston. Long enough to melt a whole in a piton means that truck was smoking for a while and nobody seemed to notice or care. I wouldn't blame the motor on that one.
#1 EMISSIONS!!!!
#2 Design in cost cutting....
What I mean by #2 is that the cost cutting makes them affordable to the manufacturer. Yes there are NO valve guides, but guess what??? that's been around for decades now. Lack of maintenance will cause the guide to wallow out. The 6.4 is also somewhat interesting because it doesn't have wrist pin bearings. Its rod on pin contact with oil being the only barrier. The 6.4 also repurposes the 6.0 bottom end, with a bigger bore and stroke. They also cut cost on the pistons in these trucks, but International used different slugs that don't fail. All of this add up to a mass produced engine that wasn't destin to live long, but long enough to make it through warranty periods.
There is also a HUGE factor NOBODY talks about, and that's the relationship between Ford and Int. When the 6.4 came out originally International was NOT going to supply ford with them. The argument on whose fault the 6.0 was, was in full swing and Int. said f-off to Ford. Ford took Int to court about the contract they were under to produce and supply engines for Ford for the next 2 years (08-10) and the judge agreed and forced Int. to supply and honor the contract. I have talked to several Ford techs now that were there when this all went down, and the amount of 6.4's they had come in from Int. with issues was scary. They had to re-do a lot of things on some of these motors. Unfortunately Int really didn't care about the builds of these 6.4's as they new Ford would be dealing with the warranty issues not them directly, and with the writing on the wall as far as a law suit coming about the 6.0, they were all but down with Ford. Sucks for us as consumers, but that's why Ford is no longer working with Int....a relation ship that spanned from 1984-2010.
I will also add quickly, that a hung injector (long enough to burn a whole in a slug) was operator error. Take it from a guy that just hung an injector open during a sled pull and melted cyl3's piston. Long enough to melt a whole in a piton means that truck was smoking for a while and nobody seemed to notice or care. I wouldn't blame the motor on that one.
Toren wasn't there something in there as well that intl didn't want to honor warranty claims on the 6.4 due to the hp/tq rating that Ford was demanding? Don't remember who I was talking to, I know that had a lot to do with warranty refusal for the hpfp... Ford pretty much said they were going to tune the trucks, fuel systems, and transmissions in house vs letting the supplier do it.
Any way, the other thing people don't seem to understand that when deleted the tuning that you run can cause just as many problems... High hp tunes (most people run them for better fuel economy) increase cylinder pressure and heat. These trucks already have problems with pistons, this only makes things worse. It also increases wear on items like Lifters and our wonderful TTY head bolts. Simple things like pilot injection... For a while tuners were disabling pilot injection purely for sound and fuel economy. It is however very hard on the pistons, again... We have learned this is a no no on a 6.4.
There is more to the story but I think people get the picture.
Any way, the other thing people don't seem to understand that when deleted the tuning that you run can cause just as many problems... High hp tunes (most people run them for better fuel economy) increase cylinder pressure and heat. These trucks already have problems with pistons, this only makes things worse. It also increases wear on items like Lifters and our wonderful TTY head bolts. Simple things like pilot injection... For a while tuners were disabling pilot injection purely for sound and fuel economy. It is however very hard on the pistons, again... We have learned this is a no no on a 6.4.
There is more to the story but I think people get the picture.
I'm looking at a stock 6.4 with 170k or so on it. Figured I'd run it by you 6.4 experts before making the trip to look at it. Records show recent major engine work related to the rockers / lifters:
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Is this a typical service for high mileage trucks?
If I got the truck I would DPF Delete, EGR cooler, and basic tunes to run the delete. It won't be used for any serious towing / sled pulling / drag racing, but won't be driven like a prius either. Anything else to do off the bat on a high mileage 6.4 to help longevity? Oil cooler? Intercooler & piping? Up-Pipe & manifolds? I'm on the fence with this one.
It will replace my 01 7.3 that was totaled. That truck had the 22R with WW2 w/ supporting fueling mods & injectors, meth injection, etc and ran like a top.
Thanks!
Is this a typical service for high mileage trucks?
If I got the truck I would DPF Delete, EGR cooler, and basic tunes to run the delete. It won't be used for any serious towing / sled pulling / drag racing, but won't be driven like a prius either. Anything else to do off the bat on a high mileage 6.4 to help longevity? Oil cooler? Intercooler & piping? Up-Pipe & manifolds? I'm on the fence with this one.
It will replace my 01 7.3 that was totaled. That truck had the 22R with WW2 w/ supporting fueling mods & injectors, meth injection, etc and ran like a top.
Thanks!
Its simple. The 6.4 is just a very lazy and poorly designed engine. Cracking pistons, front cover cavitation, rockers failing, valves melting, i could keep going. Anything that happens on a 6.0 is twice as expensive on a 6.4 and usually takes the whole engine with it. IF you are serious about having a dependable work truck, get a 6.0 and get it bulletproofed right. Heads, gaskets, EGR and Oil cooler, turbo, injectors, and all of the little stuff. The 6.4 was just not meant to be ran more than 200k without replacement, and thats why ford dumped it and developed the best diesel engine in the market right now for medium and light duty trucks...
Don't get me wrong, the engine had some engineering put into it like the turbo system and fuel cooling but it just did not meet fords demands resulting in the short comings and terrible fuel economy..
Lol alright I'll apologize for the age comment. I always hated it when people would pull that chit on me.....I just laugh at your posts since they show you have a lot to learn, yet you throw it in anybody's face that challenges you because you have this unicorn million mile 6.0 and we should all heed your word as gospel.
HA ok. First of all, the 6.0 doesn't have cam, crank, and valve train problems. EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM with the engine is related to emissions and fords demands for power. The original design of the engine is called the VT365 as well all know is the International medium duty truck. Go ask a mechanic on a school buss fleet how many head gaskets they do on their trucks and they will look at you funny. WE have to run our EGR much hotter and make more power than the VT365 spec engine. Million miles aint hard on the same pistons, crank, cam, and gaskets. It has studs as stated, not the original head bolts. Everybody cries that the 2003 is more problematic than the later models. IF you take care of anything you can make it last forever. Yeah ive been through a a$$ load of injectors, turbos, stand pipes and dummy plugs but that doesn't change the fact that my dad took care of it and i did all his work. I bought a 6.4 with 20k on it and the truck was a complete joke.
Right as i bought it i had my first problems about 4k after deleting it. I never ran hot tunes. I had a very back knocking sound and it got progressively worse over a thousand miles which ended up leading to a valve hitting my piston and cracking it almost taking the whole block with it, thank god it didn't. i changed oil every 3k and monitored it so carefully that i would almost get in accidents from looking at my monitor or laptop. It only pulled a 40ft toy hauler on the weekends. At 40k i starting having the first turbo failure which the small one had a bearing seize but nothing serious. Then at 55k the truck took itself. My number 4 piston had been damaged from a injector tip falling off and let excess fuel into the engine and melted the whole bore, piston, and walls completely destroying the engine. The truck sits as is in the back on my property.
My dad passed in 2012 with Leukemia and either left my mother to sell the truck or give it to me. Of course i had to take it because that's where i learned how to work on anything. I have all the service records to prove it and papers. The fact that you are accusing me of false accusations is really lame and low. THe private 6.0 page is way nicer to everybody than this forum, really sad. Looks like y'all have a lot to learn, not me. Duces.
Right as i bought it i had my first problems about 4k after deleting it. I never ran hot tunes. I had a very back knocking sound and it got progressively worse over a thousand miles which ended up leading to a valve hitting my piston and cracking it almost taking the whole block with it, thank god it didn't. i changed oil every 3k and monitored it so carefully that i would almost get in accidents from looking at my monitor or laptop. It only pulled a 40ft toy hauler on the weekends. At 40k i starting having the first turbo failure which the small one had a bearing seize but nothing serious. Then at 55k the truck took itself. My number 4 piston had been damaged from a injector tip falling off and let excess fuel into the engine and melted the whole bore, piston, and walls completely destroying the engine. The truck sits as is in the back on my property.
My dad passed in 2012 with Leukemia and either left my mother to sell the truck or give it to me. Of course i had to take it because that's where i learned how to work on anything. I have all the service records to prove it and papers. The fact that you are accusing me of false accusations is really lame and low. THe private 6.0 page is way nicer to everybody than this forum, really sad. Looks like y'all have a lot to learn, not me. Duces.
I'm no expert.. but aren't there quite a few threads about common problems with valve bridges breaking or lifter issues?
and one of the best upgrades is to change out the cam if your that far in a 6.0... as well as the pushrods need to be changed to a different set.. so much so that you can't get the original ones from Ford anymore, they supersede to the longer part number..
again... .maybe I am wrong.. but I seem to remember reading a lot about that.. and beings that you opened up with that comment, I neglected to continue reading..
:doh::doh::doh: Thank you so much.....I forget that after being a tech for years I still have so much to learn. Seriously....I'd say 80% of the 6.0 community knows that the Ford 6.0=Int'l VT365. And check your facts...the VT365 also has problems with head gaskets, mechanics won't look at you funny at all.
Yes there were complications that arose from having the EGR system put on later by Ford after their decision to use it in the light duty truck market instead of the medium duty it was originally designed for. Again, this isn't new exciting news. Million miles ain't hard, you're right....so why throw it in everybody's face that you're a million mile 6.0 owner so you must be right?
I am sorry for your loss and I'm glad you get to keep you and your dad's legacy going in your truck. I'm not sure of what "accusing me of false accusations" means but I'll let that one go at this point.
Edit: FWIW Mike, the updated pushrods are shorter, not longer.
Yes there were complications that arose from having the EGR system put on later by Ford after their decision to use it in the light duty truck market instead of the medium duty it was originally designed for. Again, this isn't new exciting news. Million miles ain't hard, you're right....so why throw it in everybody's face that you're a million mile 6.0 owner so you must be right?
I am sorry for your loss and I'm glad you get to keep you and your dad's legacy going in your truck. I'm not sure of what "accusing me of false accusations" means but I'll let that one go at this point.
Edit: FWIW Mike, the updated pushrods are shorter, not longer.
oke
I own a 6.4L that is pushing 200,000 miles.
I have owned the truck for just over 10,000 miles.
So, does that make me an expert by proxy?
I am 33 and wouldn't DARE disrespect anyone on this board, especially those repairing and USING these trucks everyday. And I am not talking about oil changes and daily drivers.
I grew up in a 7.3, rebuilt many, and drove my own until it was totaled when it rolled. Do I consider myself an expert? No. Will I ever be? No. One day if I have my way I will get to meet Toren, Nick, and a few others that I really look up to.
And as stated earlier, International Navistar came out with the 6.4L to cover all of the damage done by the early 6.0Ls and to combat emissions. Anyone who states that the 6.4 is a "lazy" engine obviously doesn't own one. And I respect that everyone will stand behind the truck/engine that suits them and that they have had the best/most experience with.
I have owned the truck for just over 10,000 miles.
So, does that make me an expert by proxy?
I am 33 and wouldn't DARE disrespect anyone on this board, especially those repairing and USING these trucks everyday. And I am not talking about oil changes and daily drivers.
I grew up in a 7.3, rebuilt many, and drove my own until it was totaled when it rolled. Do I consider myself an expert? No. Will I ever be? No. One day if I have my way I will get to meet Toren, Nick, and a few others that I really look up to.
And as stated earlier, International Navistar came out with the 6.4L to cover all of the damage done by the early 6.0Ls and to combat emissions. Anyone who states that the 6.4 is a "lazy" engine obviously doesn't own one. And I respect that everyone will stand behind the truck/engine that suits them and that they have had the best/most experience with.
Hmmm.....
So lets see here......
999,xxx milage truck that NO ONE has seen proof of besides him.....
30 MPG while towing because "he knows how to drive"
Self proclaimed 6.0 expert spouting off only info that can be found in Bill Hewitt vids and a QUICK google search
No respect for others and a name calling A-hole that gets offended when its done to him and retreats to his beloved other forum where he pretends to be God of 6.0's.....
WORTHLESS!!!!! Good riddance....think I should get a award for chasing him off:thumb: Just make sure its NOT a participation trophy....
So lets see here......
999,xxx milage truck that NO ONE has seen proof of besides him.....
30 MPG while towing because "he knows how to drive"
Self proclaimed 6.0 expert spouting off only info that can be found in Bill Hewitt vids and a QUICK google search
No respect for others and a name calling A-hole that gets offended when its done to him and retreats to his beloved other forum where he pretends to be God of 6.0's.....
WORTHLESS!!!!! Good riddance....think I should get a award for chasing him off:thumb: Just make sure its NOT a participation trophy....
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