Do you know if any engine work has been done on it recently?

 

I have a spare motor that i was going to just replace this motor with. I bought it with that noise you heard above and was told it was the low pressure oil pump. So i pulled the low pressure oil pump and entire front cover off and the gyro gear and front cover where damaged badly. Then I thought, let's just take it down to the block and I'll pull the heads and see if there was other visible damage. the cylinder's and the cylinder walls looked great actually on all 8 cylinders. So i replaced with new head gaskets, new arp head studs, had the heads sent out and had them machined and valve seats done for nice fit. I inspected the front driver and passenger cam lifters, looked good. without being able to inspect the back sets of the lifters because the branch tube prevents you from being able to pull those out without removing the back cover while in the truck. I also replaced all the push rods with new ones. I put it all back together. Mind you, when i bought it, it did not start at all and it made that same noise before i replaced all the items above. I thought i would get lucky I was able to fire it up nicely, but after 5 min it started to run a little rough and then it made that thumping noise badly, so i shut the motor off and there was some smoke that started coming out slowly near the back of the turbo. So it was hard to see where it was actually coming from.

Does this help?

 

Pretty much sounds like a bad lobe or lifter. You could have pulled the HPOP and inspected the last 4 lobes/lifters. Even if the front 8 lifters looked good, a borescope down the lifter bores to view the lobe noses would have been prudent.

 

Seeing your post on the damaged LPOP gears and front cover is what I was looking for.

Add me to the "lifter list" (and all the damage that follows it).

 

TooMany Toys,

Thanks for the response. I actually did take the HPOP out and the two bolts on the SPC fitting to see if the branch tube would come out and of course i couldn't because the back cover won't let you take it out. LOL. I even bought all new lifters to put in thinking it could be done since i already had the heads off. To your point, if i had been more experienced, i would have done that inspection. A good lesson learned.

Let's say that it is a bad lifter, does that mean i need to take the back cover off to fix it? I can't pull the cab off since I've done all this in my driveway. So i assume this means i will have to pull the motor out to replace all the cam and the lifters, in your opinion???

Thanks for everyone's input here. Very helpful.

 

One more question, is there a way to change out and replace the back two lifter banks (driver and passenger Side) that the branch tube is attached to with the cab on the truck??????

 

With a wiped cam lobe, it's pulling the motor, pull the back cover. pull the heads, and pull the crank. Some have had success removing the rear stub on the crank so they can get the cam out without pulling the crank, but that's a bridge too far for me. If I really, really had to do it, OK, but not my first choice.

Considering your LPOP had issues, I'd be yanking it all apart, although you could do as I'm doing and leave the pistons in place. That debris could have been distributed throughout the oiling system and not pulling the oil gallery plugs and cleaning all the passageways could get you a second order of doing a lot of work only to redo it again.

Basically what you need to do is what I've been doing. Although, you probably don't want to walk away from the motor for six months at a time as I have done .... several times. The world's longest, and most expensive "I'm going to change a lifter" repair.

Edit -missed the last post. Yeah, pull the heads, pull the trans, pull the back cover, remove the tubes.

It's not that bad to pull the motor in the driveway. Even when it's sloped.

 

Just to be thorough -

When you were cranking did you happen to notice if you are still experiencing low pressure in the base oil system (ie does the dash oil pressure gauge come up)? These engines will thump (somewhat) with low base oil pressure.

What oil filter and oil filter cap are you using?

Have you pulled and checked the oil pressure regulator (by the harmonic balancer)?

 

Agree with that Mark, but he has a strong thump with one cylinder. But your suggestion is a good one.

He has a Sinister oil cap.

 

Oh, that's right, you could see it in the posted video. Had forgotten that.

Out of curiosity - I just wonder if a needle bearing might not still be stuck in the regulator. Totally agree that that would not change the diagnosis of the engine damage.

 

Yeah, he made some rookie mistakes, but we've all been there.

There are so many things I should have done differently with my motor because I had a hard time believing it could be that bad of the reman. I should have approached mine as I knew nothing about it, as I've done with my restorations and my path would have been different.

He never said he replaced the front cover and oil pump despite it being "damaged badly", but would have to assume Athlon would do so, and that could replace the regulator. Although in the overall scheme of things, yeah, a bearing needle could have still been in the oil pan waiting to be pulled up.

Again, a newbie with the motor platform, that amount of damage to the LPOP meant a fractured roller, something not found when pulling the front lifters. Quoting Meatloaf appropriately in "Paradise by the dashboard light" - Stop right there ... before we go any farther......

 

I feel the urge to go buy two more rare earth magnets for the oil pan ............

This stuff makes me sick to think about (and I know that is an understatement to what you have been through)!

 

With one thumping that bad, just pull the valve covers and oil rails then observe the intake valves while cranking -- looking for the one that is lazy
if there isn't a damaged push rod or bridge, then your gonna pull the engine out anyways to replace the cam

 

It’s why there are times I just walk away from it. I get so ticked off at myself for getting talked into purchasing that engine. I knew better in my heart, but convinced myself to go ahead after talking to the service and parts managers that I worked with for two decades. Being between a rock and hard place at the time didn’t help, but still, what was I thinking.

Too much of an investment to dig yourself into. Working, a few weeks salary to blow off, retired, 3/4 year of pension.

 

Hey guys,

I want to first thank everyone for their input here. You all have been gracious with your time and information and I have learned new things here.

I made a couple more quick videos on the LPOP and Front cover damage so that you can reconcile some of your thoughts and diagnosis. I believe you are right that there are shards of metal that are in the oil and this has caused some blockage and causing malfunction. The guy i bought it from just absolutely abused the motor by not maintaining clean oil and coolant. We all know these motors are rock stars if you keep clean oil, proper coolant and clean fuel.

Here is the clip: LPOP and Front cover damage

I replaced the entire front cover, LPOP and gasket with this kit from Freedom Racing. I replaced everything. See the list Front Cover Kit from Freedom Racing.

Many Thanks

 

So you can see the head install. I was so close, i should have just pulled the motor

If you guys don't mind, I'm will post the engine removal and let you know if i get this baby rollin!!

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

The imprints on the gerotor gears are clearly from lifter needle bearings - at least from what I see.

 

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

Thanks bismic for all your comments. I honestly thought if i replace the LPOP and front cover I might get lucky. Also sometimes the little snap rings from the injectors get stuck in the oil relief valve and cause the gyro gear to break also.

Its a good lesson to learn.

Since i put new ARP studs in but never ran the motor, when i go to rebuild the whole motor can i reuse the head studs or should I buy new again?

 

From what I have seen the snap ring pieces leave a different imprint.

The ARP studs are certainly re-usable.

 

Nope, that’s needle bearings. You have a wiped lifter and lobe nicely hidden.

So a cam and those lifters you didn’t get, and you need to check the main and rod bearings. I should say you may need to replace the lifters already done depending on oil contamination. And unfortunately recheck the LPOP. The oil cooler screen may have debris, and if the screen is broken , the HPOP may be suspect.

 

When i go to pull the motor out, After I support the trans, take out the bell housing bolts, is there anything else I need to do as I'm pulling the motor our? Do i have to do something to the torque converter?

FROM BLUE's Post :

-support transmission with a floor jack and remove bell housing bolts
-with engine supported remove 4 motor mount bolts from each side
-double and triple check to make sure everything is disconnected from the engine
-lift up the engine and transmission at the same time, this will prevent damage to torque converter studs, they will have to come up enough that the mounts clear the x member slide the engine forward enough that it separates from the trans. raise engine so that the oil pan clears the x member, and slide it on out.

 

X2 on the imprints, they are from lifter needle bearings -- the rollers should not get past the oil filter, but with low oil pressure there may be bearing damage

I would reuse the studs, no problem -- tho others may disagree
worked on engines for many years, with yield bolts and never replaced a set outside of warranty jobs
no failures, so ...do they need to be replaced each time? ...I have not seen the evidence

 

I put a wedge under the torque converter to keep it support against the bell housing.

Athion, you are going to be doing about the same as I am. Obviously you have knowledge, but if you want to see the internals of the 6.0 and different aspects of what I'm doing ... not that anyone in their right mind should follow what I'm doing, this is becoming my R&D motor as my wife says ....... You can go see the internals and steps that are needed. Unless you decide to punt with a short block.

TooManyToys

Just a guy named Jack doing something.

www.youtube.com