@SSSS Haha good luck

Please keep us updated on your litigation

 

Not quite to the litigation stage yet. Spoke to HQ today and they are looking into options.

Best case is they finally figure this out and I go on my <not-so> happy way.

Worst case is litigation - when left with no choice. Not what I want to get into litigation with a behemoth like Ford, but it's worked for others, and I am left with little other choice. (Besides a complete emissions delete - which I am quickly warming up to).

The purpose of this question is to see if anyone else had this chronic re-occurring issue and how/if it was finally resolved. I'd much rather know this and have it fixed than have to go to my other options.

 

 

Yep - that's the recall my dealer performed (without even telling me - when it was in for the second transmission recall) - and that's when the current problem started.

 

 

Not sure you had the same sub-code /DTC as mine, but interesting video.

I guess I can mention it to the diesel tech; you know how they love it when you say "I saw this video on YouTube.....".

 

Lastly, to be taken seriously you should upload the repair orders so we can see what is going on word for word from the service tech.

 

I think this is the meat of it.

 

 

Not sure what this means.....

 

Lets be clear that is not the same situation.
My point in sharing that video, is that its VERY easy for a top tier tech to have issues.

The guy in that video is one of the best, but he missed a simple step in the pinpoint test which is to check the intake for restriction. I'm not sure you should be directing the diesel tech, but you should know that your situation happens to the best of them.

 

Yep. I'm not being unappreciative.

The real reason again is to see if anyone else has had the same issue and how/if it was resolved.

 

Yep. I'm not being unappreciative.

The real reason again is to see if anyone else has had the same issue and how/if it was resolved.

Jokes aside, Heavy is right, techs make mistakes especially if they're rushed. These 6.7's sometimes require you to think outside of the box, or in this case the pin point tests. I've found almost all of my company trucks with these issues had clogged intakes or egr coolers (especially prior to 2017). Are you taking it to the same dealer every occurrence? May want to get a second opinion or look into lemon laws.

 

Lemon laws? Have them buy it back if so.

 

Giving this dealer one last chance to fix. Then trying a different dealer. Ford dealers just don't want to work on Diesels it seems. Colorado: worst lemon law protection in the US.

 

So - just back from the dealer. They replaced the DEF injector. For a P0420 code.

They reset the DTC of course so the CEL is now off. Waiting to see if it comes back on after x miles.

Riddle me this: isn't the P0420 code related to the Cat ? Why would replacing a DEF injector fix this ? (I know what DEF does. Just not where the pre and post measurements are taken).

Does anyone have, or know where I can find, a good diagram of the 2020 F350 6.7l diesel exhaust/emissions system ? Specifically, the locations/order of the EGR/sensors, DOC/Cat, NOx sensors, the DEF system / DEF injector, etc.....

Yes - I know - get under my truck and look I will - but surely there is a diagram/manual somewhere so I can validate what I see.

 

Here is an excellent video. Obviously this isn't a 6.7l PowerStroke, but I believe it represents the identical components and flow.

DOC-DPF-DEF Inject-SCR

So - my question now is - on the 6.7l PowerStroke - when a P0420 code is generated (Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)) where are the two sensors located that determine the inefficiency ? Are the two sensors before and after the DOC, or is the first sensor before the DOC and the second sensor after one of the other downstream components ?

 

Your exhaust diagram.

 

I've seen that diagram, but wasn't sure it was right. It's different than in the video. I was sort of assuming that there was some logic to the order in which different emission treatments were applied, and hence ALL diesel systems followed the same order.

OK - so if that diagram is correct - where are the two sensors that generate the P0420 code (Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1) located ?

(Thanks)

 

.

No, the injector has nothing to do with the calculation since it's after the DOC. It takes data from the intake air temp, mass air flow, egt 11 and 12, then determines if that number is within spec of being "efficient", In simple terms.

Thank you ! This is what I was unfortunately suspecting. I think all the dealer did was reset the DTC code, and it seems like it will re-appear on the next re-gen.

BTW: where do you get these docs ?

 

OK - based on what I have learned in this forum and presented to the dealer, the dealer has essentially admitted that the new DEF injector (even if it was needed) couldn't have fixed the P0420 DTC, and all they did to address P0420 was reset the DTC/CEL. The next DPF regen will re-calibrate, and the P0420 DTC code could return. Driven long enough - the vehicle could enter limp mode on the side of the road somewhere.

I asked the dealer to force a regen - but they can't because it isn't in the Ford flowchart. Which really means any time they spend doing this - they won't get paid for.

I can force a regen myself, but at this point I'm not touching ANYTHING which could give Ford the opportunity to come back and say the customer was messing with the vehicle themselves.

I've insisted they contact Ford TAC for advice on what to do next.

To be continued.....

 

Kidding me....

 

Nope. I am old(er) and this WAS my dream truck. I am learning.

I know the EPA mandates the emission stuff - but it's Ford's responsibility to produce something that works when they sell an $80k vehicle.

 

Thats fair.

My humble opinion is that all manufactures have been struggling with the emissions mandates and as such there are very few techs who are capable of solving complex issues because they are limited by the process.

In that if a diesel truck is not under warranty I would never take it to a dealer.

 

The saga continues.

As expected, all the dealer did to address P0420 was reset the DTC/CEL. The next DPF regen (after 700 miles) caused the exact same P0420 DTC code to return.

That dealer obviously had no idea what they were doing, so - I brought the vehicle into a different dealer.

The new dealer is saying the MAF is contaminated with oil from a K&N air filter, and won't even look at the truck any further for the CEL issue.

Now... I had installed the K&N filter two months ago - AFTER the CEL came back on - as a way to check if it was an old air filter. The CEL was already ON when I changed out the filter. (Installing the K&N did nothing to the CEL light; it remained on). There are no MAF related DTCs from ForScan. Despite this - Ford won't look at the truck and wants $600 for a new MAF.

So, my plan now is to change back to a new Motorcraft air filter. Clean the MAF. See if the CEL dissapears.

If not, I will replace the MAF myself with a new Motorcraft MAF. See if the CEL dissapears.

If not, take the truck back to yet another dealer for further P0420 diagnosis/repair.

BTW: I contacted K&N. They claim to have a dealer relationship department that handles these claims by dealers/manufacturers, so that the customer doesn't have to be in the middle of a "they-said" game between the Dealer and K&N. So far - complete silence from K&N.

Does K&N really get involved ?

What is the consensus on K&N filters: problems with MAFs, or urban myth ?

 

What is the consensus on K&N filters: problems with MAFs, or urban myth ?

That was a terrible addition, and now the dealer has an "out"

Regardless of who responds otherwise, an oiled filter is never a good idea and you should go back to the factory spec.

I stand by my advice to trade it in or continue to find a dealer/service center knowledgable on the situation and willing to forego the standard "solutions"

 

I've used K&N filters as upgrades on about 8 vehicles: never had an issue or even heard of an issue - until now. Even the auto parts store recommended the K&N filter, so what's the average consumer to do ?

Not even sure it's a real issue yet. The dealer didn't dismantle: they said they just looked up the cold air intake. So I will withhold judgement until I take it off and get a look at it myself. I have lost faith in most Dealer diesel techs to properly diagnose an issue (given the restraints put on them).

Trading it in and taking a $30k hit doesn’t seem like the right solution yet. This is still under warranty and once I swap out the air filter and MAF I am back to stock, and I can have Ford resume the P0420 work. (Assuming the CEL doesn't go away). Anything is possible at this point.

Learning a lot.

 

I've used K&N filters as upgrades on about 8 vehicles: never had an issue or even heard of an issue - until now. Even the auto parts store recommended the K&N filter, so what's the average consumer to do ?

K&N being an "upgrade" is a marketing hype as old as putting "lifetime warranty" on the brake pad box.
I'll flip the question around and ask why does the average consumer feel they need a "performance" filter?

Hint: The answer is in the first line.

 

Yep I fully get it.

The ratio of people who claim to have great experiences with K&N to those who don't is probably 100:1, so yes I got "marketed".

In my case I was just trying to get the "best" filter (again "marketed" to) out of desperation to try anything related to the emissions issue. A new air filter seems like something reasonable to try. Who would have expected an air filter to do anything but filter air....

 

Understood completely
Now switch it out and clean the MAF so we can get back to the issue

 

OK- Saga continues.

I changed the filter out and cleaned the MAF. The check-engine light did NOT go off.

I brought the truck back into the dealer. A "senior tech" spent 3 hours reprogramming things: basically everything he could reprogram. He reset the check-engine-light. 800 miles later the light had not come on

UNTIL....

Today I got the dreaded "DEF Fault: Speed 50 MPH in 48 miles" message.

Brought back to the dealer: they say the downstream Nox sensor is bad and needs replacing - AND - it isn't considered part of the emissions system and isn't covered under the emissions under warranty.

Question 1: Aren't Nox sensors part of the emissions system (what other purpose do they have) and aren't they covered under the manufacture's emissions 80k warranty ?

 

Your first post said the dealer replaced the DPF, one would assume its still under the install warranty.

How long before you just trade it in and move on?

 

They did. And the SCR injector. And the EGT.

That's a good point - IF the downstream Nox sensor is "part" of the DPF ? Is it ? Could they have replaced the DPF without replacing the Nox sensor ?

 

The nox sensor isn't included with a new dpf. But that's ridiculous saying it's not part of the emissions system. What say you? @FordDoctor

 

Here is the list of covered emissions parts for the 2020 Model year: Page 25.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content/dam/brand_ford/en_us/brand/resources/general/pdf/warranty/2020-Ford-Car-LT-Truck-Warranty-version-1_frdwa_EN-US_04_2019.pdf

I don't see NOx sensors specifically listed - but it could be under one of the more general descriptions (?)

Here is what's covered by the Federal "Design and Defect" 8/80k law:

• Catalytic converters
• Engine control units (ECU)
• On-board diagnostic module (OBD)

These are the only parts listed in the Clean Air Act. It appears the EPA (don't get me started) hasn't kept up with the complexity of the emissions components on vehicles.

The NOx sensor is obviously an emissions component, (a $400 part, $900 installed). (I know it's only a plug and electrical connector and takes 15 mins to replace). However, it's a part that (artificially) prevents the operation of the vehicle if it fails, and should be considered an emissions component by anyone with half a brain.

Now - rant over - you may be asking - how does this relate to my original problem:
1. Yet another emissions problem on a new, gently driven, Ford diesel.
2. The start of these emissions problems started (see the beginning of the thread) with Emissions Recall 22E04 to fix a issue that could cause the MIL light to illuminate and/or damage the SCR system / NOx sensor). (Recall 22E04: MIL check engine light. Code - P0420 “Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1).”).

So now I begin the process of arguing with Ford that:
1. A NOx sensor is part of the emissions system and is covered
2. Failing that, that the original bug in the PCM software (which 22E04 was supposed to fix) likely caused the premature failure of the NOx sensor.

It's like I acquired a new hobby/career when I bought a Ford diesel - when all I wanted was a 1-ton to carry my camper during my retirement travels.....