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For anybody running a Leece 230 alternator .

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17K views 24 replies 9 participants last post by  TooManyToys  
#1 ·
Hello guys , there's a good read over on FTE titled " Leece Neville voltage fluctuations " .
After reading this I realized my truck is doing exactly what they're talking about .
Go check it out .
 
#4 ·
owns 2003 Ford F-350 Lariet
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#9 ·
Thanks for the link jack, good stuff in there. What is the recommendation for someone like me still running the stock ford alternator and wants a slight upgrade? The Bosch 140
I have no aux. stuff to run.

Luke
 
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#5 ·
I didn't read the whole thread, but the fact that the alt is recovering means its working.

Sure its annoying to hear the truck searching to level off but its working as designed IMO.

If you are chasing this, you are blessed and congrats on your healthy 6.0, I would recommend that everyone do the cable upgrades and run an additional ground cable between batteries.
Dont cheap out on the cables and solder your ends.
 
#6 · (Edited)
At cold, the voltage regulator outputs higher voltage then Ford intended when utilizing Beru’s glow plug controller, which shuts down if voltage exceeds its set point to prevent glow plug tip blowoff that plagued 7.3s and other diesels. So depending on the trucks situation, battery drawdown, battery acceptance in charge, temperature, what accessories are on, etc, you can get into a loop where voltage keeps turning the glow plugs on and off. It happens with some other brand alternator too. It will end if the voltage stays higher then the cutoff or the GPCM times out.

On my truck during the summer months a small pulley generally keeps the GPCM shut down as the alternator output is high enough to shut it down. The small pulley in winter mostly gets into the fluctuation, but going to the stock size pulley keeps it manageable, especially if I keep the fan on one of the lower speeds.

The L-N puts out about 180a at idle with the stock pulley, exceeds 200a with the small pulley. Immediately after startup the draw is typically 90a glow plugs, 20a engine controls, and about 30-25a for each battery replenishment. So 160a takes care of all and the excess keeps the voltage up. The batteries immediately start to lower acceptance due to replenishment and resistance increases from heating, so the voltage increase is a race depending on headroom, amps providable vs amps needed. The point is, all you really need is the stock pulley with a 200a alternator no matter the manufacturer.
 
#8 ·
Thanks. I'm so far behind on getting them out. Like years ....

I too took the small pulley off my Bosch 140a and put it on the L-N, keeping in line with Tim Taylor. If L-N kept in the line with SAE voltage standards I think we would have been OK. I mostly was OK with my old batteries as the resistance was up, but new batteries just brought the issue out more. I tried to get Prestolite to acknowledge the issue, but to do so would mean for them to ship out a lot of new regulators, so I don't think they will ever do that. It's a great alternator, well build with two fans. I came across Prestolite alternators for years in the heavy truck industry and they were well perceived in the maintenance departments.

It's a real tight fit with the stock pulley, the belt just makes it over the lip and you have to work, at least with the stock '03 belt.
 
owns 2003 Ford F-350 Lariet
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#14 ·
Once the glow plugs kick off the output required is only 35a. The engine controls and other components are drawing about 18-20a, so the batteries at 2 minutes from key on (30sec on the stopwatch is my key-on point) are only accepting 7-8a each, since replenishing while the glow plugs are on with the 140a. If you turn everything on within the interior of a pickup it will draw an additional 50a, still under what the 140a small pulley can produce. The output won't be as high at hot engine since the regulated idle will blower and the temperature compensation voltage regulator used in about every alternator will lower the voltage output to about 13.6-13.8.

Again, with your 110a at this idle you usually in the 60a output range, so with glow plugs + engine controls, or all electronics + engine control your still using the batteries as a reservoir and voltage wants settle down.
 
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#15 ·
Once the glow plugs kick off the output required is only 35a. The engine controls and other components are drawing about 18-20a, so the batteries at 2 minutes from key on (30sec on the stopwatch is my key-on point) are only accepting 7-8a each, since replenishing while the glow plugs are on with the 140a. If you turn everything on within the interior of a pickup it will draw an additional 50a, still under what the 140a small pulley can produce. The output won't be as high at hot engine since the regulated idle will blower and the temperature compensation voltage regulator used in about every alternator will lower the voltage output to about 13.6-13.8.

Again, with your 110a at this idle you usually in the 60a output range, so with glow plugs + engine controls, or all electronics + engine control your still using the batteries as a reservoir and voltage wants settle down.
First off, thanks for the information. There's more than I thought about this. The video helps understand. Kinda like pictures in a book.

My concern is in the bold, will it create pre mature wear on the batteries by using them as a reservoir?
This truck was my uncles since new and its on the third alternator since new. All swapped by the dealer, and reman'ed, go figure, not sure if it was an option for him to choose. The batteries are carquest from advanced auto, which I'd like to swap out, but want to get a good alternator to help them so I'm not buying new ones more than I should. Hope that makes sense
Also, hope I didn't hijack this thread.

Luke
 
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#16 ·
Batteries are a reservoir by nature. It's what they do, store electrical energy for when it's needed, by the starter or when the alternator is overwhelmed and can't produce enough. When I used the term "using the batteries as a reservoir" it was a poor choice, I should have said "you are using the batteries for electricity since the alternator can't keep up".

Batteries have an X amount of life in them, so each out and back in takes a little life out. But the few amps due to a 110a alternator under high load conditions compared to hundreds of amps during a motor start is not going to matter. Sorry for the worry.

I used to believe that the Motorcraft remans were better then the general aftermarket rebuilds. My company used to supply parts to Ford, both for new vehicle assembly line and to the Motorcraft aftermarket program. They do have higher standards for their parts compared to what Advance/Autozone/O'Rileys/Napa will market, but I'm afraid even they have joined the race to the bottom in trying to keep competitive in the aftermarket/service industry. When I installed a 6.4L starter in my truck I went out of my way to get an OE unit with low miles, I've gotten to that point.
 
#17 ·
I used to believe that the Motorcraft remans were better then the general aftermarket rebuilds. My company used to supply parts to Ford, both for new vehicle assembly line and to the Motorcraft aftermarket program. They do have higher standards for their parts compared to what Advance/Autozone/O'Rileys/Napa will market, but I'm afraid even they have joined the race to the bottom in trying to keep competitive in the aftermarket/service industry. When I installed a 6.4L starter in my truck I went out of my way to get an OE unit with low miles, I've gotten to that point.
Amen.

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#18 ·
My LN does the same thing. I’ve only started it once in the cold since it was installed and it does exactly as that thread describes. It cleared up and I shrugged it off as sitting for 2 months.

Kinda sucks because I bought it from the rants and raves from FicmRepair


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#19 ·
Your right mine does the same thing. I bought the LN 230 with overdrive pulley a couple months ago from ficmrepair. With a new belt and the complete cable kit upgrade. On very cold mornings I have noticed the interior light dimming and brighting for the first three minutes. I also installed a new ficm with atlas 40.
So is the overdrive pulley causing this or something else. Durning this purchase I also installed two new odyssey extreme batteries. Truck wasn’t acting like this before all the upgrade.


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#20 ·
It’s doing this because the voltage set point of the L-N alternator is higher then the voltage the truck was designed around, it goes to 14.5 to 14.6 volts at initial startup. With the smaller pulley it gets there faster then it would with the stock size pulley. The ramp up changes though depending on battery conditions. I did not notice the issue much until I installed new batteries. New batteries have a higher CC/CCA capacity since the plates are not oxidized, so they alter the situation from my experience.

Again, I don’t have all the recorded data I did testing this alternator or all the things I tried at Prestolite’s suggesrions that might be causing this. None of their ideas changed my results and it got to the point where I thought they had no plans to do anything other then wear me out so I would go away. But here are a small pulley / stock pulley vids to show the differences.


Small pulley, you can see the GPCM cut out once volts go above the voltage, the alt backs off amp output, volts drops just below threshold, GPCM turns the glow plugs back on and the alternator reads the voltage drop due to the higher load, alternator kicks in full amps, volts exceed threashold. This was done on a spring day so it doesn’t take long for the batteries to fill up more and everything. Everything calms down once the voltage is high enough to just keep the GPCM turned off waiting for the PCM two minute time out.



This is the same batteries but the larger stock pulley and a colder temp. The alternator output amps is lower at idle so the ramp of the batteries replenishment is slower. The voltage still reaches over the threshold, but with the feed to the batteries slower and the slower rpm of the alternator the effect is dampened. Again, the GPCM still has shut down early with the higher volts, before the two minute time out.



This is from when I first started the project to test alternator output differences. After I completed all this work I decided to redo it as I needed to separate out the GP data and time it. But this recording is a warm summer morning with my old tired batteries. Again it’s the stock pulley and idle output here is 160-180a. Honestly, when we get to a alternator of this size output we really don’t need the smaller pulley. I fell into this trap too. We all started to go large with the assumption it’s after start when the FICMs fail, I no longer believe that. But that’s another story and we’re on alternators here.



I’ll throw this out too, it’s a combination of two variables, first altering the voltage sense connect direct to the alternator output, the second as factory, from the splice of all the fusible links, stock size pulley. Voltage still going over 14.4 and GPCM still reacting and shutting down as it should.



This time moving the sense connection all the way to the battery, no change as the voltage is still exceeding 14.4 and shutting down the GPCM before the two minute time out. But with the smaller pulley most times on my truck there is not the wild swings of the voltage regulator. You still can have the issue with the stock pulley, but the action is dampened. Now this is my truck, my batteries. The situation can still get reactive during some conditions. Some people have found providing a slightly higher load by keeping the HVAC fan on a notch or two helps during those first two minutes of startup, but IMO that’s very dependent on the individual situation.

Again, this is only an issue during the time the glow plugs are on. After that everything is normal.

 
owns 2003 Ford F-350 Lariet
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#21 ·
In the end all of things, is this going to hurt anything long term? Glow plugs on I’m sure help with the first cold running, but at least it’s starting up fine.

Anyway you could possible regulate the voltage to the GPCM?


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#22 · (Edited)
I see it as annoying. If this was a 7.3 where the control of the glow plugs is only by a relay that does not monitor the voltage I’d be worried. But Nav was trying to avoid that.

From my research there is conflicting data if it’s the PCM or GPCM that keys off the voltage. BERU makes the GPCM and glow plugs, and their earlier literature indicates it controlled there. I would not want to fool the GPCM (or PCM) that there is a lower voltage, it’s shut down is to prevent the glow plugs from overheating. The true solution would be at the alternators voltage regulator to match SAE guidelines.

I’m not tossing my L-N. The majority of time I would be fine with my Bosch 140a so I could. But as I said before in my prior life in vehicle testing, the Prestolite products were very well regarded in terms of life and reliability. The times I’ve shot the case with an infrared gun it’s run cool, it’s construction is exceptional good as reflected as what you would expect from a unit built for commercial use. But they screwed up on the voltage set point at first start cold conditions. Per SAE recomendation and design parameters, the voltage does reduce as the underhood temperatures rise, to insure the batteries don’t overcharge under high temperatures, the real killer of batteries. I’m fine running the stock pulley, it still charges my dump trailer at a faster rate when I’m in quick cycling periods, something the 140a was a little weak on. As I run into issues specific times of the year I can fan dampen the initial two minute quirk this alternator causes. And I keep the $12 small pulley on my Bosch should I ever need it. I even still have my 110a since I still need to record more data.

BTW, if you look very closely at the Bosch 140a alternator, it’s case molds and other details are exactly like the factory 110a. While a counterfeiter might go to that detail, a company like Bosch would just have their own engineers build up their own design. The case is larger in diameter for the larger diameter stator. My SWAG is that I don’t know if Visteon is building both and private labeling the larger alternator to Bosch, or if Bosch is the original supplier of the 110a. Both Visteon and Bosch have supplied Ford with alternators as OE. The later model Ford OE 140a uses a different case, so a different supplier. But that’s a SWAG.

Pics for my vid.
 

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#25 ·
Considering the thread, I thought I post his from a member on another forum. He had previously found the fluctuations to be very annoying.


“I have found a method to avoid the fluctuations for me and my AGM batteries. With the headlights on I wait for not only the glow plugs to finish but the injectors to stop clacking and give it a 10 second count after that. In the 5 starts I have done this it seems to cause enough draw/drain on the batteries to avoid the fluctuations and it's not a lot of extra time out of my day.”
 
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