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Hey thanks for the response.

So, on the ebp sensor, what is the outcome of someone running their engine with a clogged tube or (my case) a broken tube?

If your running 5w30 engine oil, did you create a different tune because your running a different weight oil? Obviously, you have the ultimate access to having a darn good tune but was there things that needed manipulated just because of the oil?
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Surprisingly, I really didn't have to change anything when I changed oil weight and the truck didn't run all that differently. The bigger concern would be to make sure that the oil is changed regularly. Now on a 6.0L, changing to 5w30 can provide a major improvement in cold start situations where injector stiction is a problem, and I did notice an improvement in my 6.0L. However, the 7.3L was negligible.

As for clogged EBP sensors, we've found it to result in a slight degradation in performance. In cases where the sensor is clogged, it's actually better to just disconnect the sensor and let the ECM just substitute a default inferred value for the EBP. Ideally, it's best to let the sensor do its work, and to that extent I'd suggest replacing the EBP tube if it's broken.
 

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Man i really appreciate the wealth of knowledge that you are willing to share here!

I am planning on getting that tube fixed, just was curious how it was actually viewed by the pcm.

I hope to have some more questions but as of now, well I need to chew on what you have wrote.
That was alot of info! Lol
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Glad to be of assistance. :D
 

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Subscribed. Gonna have to read through a couple times to comprehend. LOL. Great info thanks

Sent from my SCH-R880 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 

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and this thread is why bill is the man.........
 

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Awesome info as always. :thumb: The only cooler thing is seeing him do it to your truck in person
 

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Awesome info as always. :thumb: The only cooler thing is seeing him do it to your truck in person
Agreed! Hey Dave, you know it would be a shame for this information to be lost in the old threads. Any chance this could turn into a sticky?
 

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I have a question on the seal level injection timing map power hungry posted on the first page. I am trying to wrap my idea as to why there is such a valley in the mid mg of fuel compared to the high and low mg of fuel values. Also there is a small valley in the rpm at low mg(5-10) of fueling compared to the upper rpm range.

In my head it seems that if 10 degrees is good at 5mg of fuel and 10 is good at 70mg why at 45 mg of fuel only has 3-4 degrees of timing why would it not be more similar to the higher and lower fuel mg levels at the same rpms?

my only thought is there is more to play with the icpvsrpm adder map or another function so im not getting the ful picture.
 
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Discussion Starter #32
That's a really good question and the answer has a lot to do with both how ICP and RPM affect the injection event.

The first thing to consider is RPM. Common sense would dictate that as the RPM increases, timing needs to advance so that the combustion event COMPLETES at the optimal point in crankshaft rotation. If the injectors continued to fire at a static timing value, the fuel would still be burning as it exits the exhaust ports and the EGTs would be astronomical. That's not to mention that there simply wouldn't be any power whatsoever.

Second, any increase in ICP is going to have a corresponding change in Start of Combustion (SOC), even for the same Start of Injection (SOI) timing. Higher pressure will cause the fuel to spray faster and hotter, resulting in an inherent advance in SOC. There is already a table that addresses this issue and offsets the SOI to some degree. However, this table is designed to derive a TIME (in ms) value of injection offset which helps to automatically adjust SOI as RPM changes.

This leaves the MAIN SOI table. This table is designed to provide SOI offset values which are then added to the SOI values derived from the "TIME" calculations. The thing to remember is that as the engine becomes loaded and the mg/Stroke fuel increases, you want to turn down the SOI to some extent to help reduce cylinder pressure. In general, these ranges are in a fuel delivery range that indicate heavier engine loading, so cylinder pressure are a bit more critical. Also, while increasing SOI can help increase HP output in the mid-range, it has an undesired effect on the torque curve. Reducing SOI provides more post-TDC combustion and more push on the piston during the downward travel, this improving the torque curve.

One other thing to consider is that as your fuel delivery volume increases, there is already going to be an inherent increase in ICP. Give that most injection events must operate within a 1.5 - 2.0 ms (1.5 - 3.5 ms actual pulsewidth) window, ICP generall has more to do with fuel delivery control than pulsewidth does. If you put a truck in drive and ran the injectors at a flat 2.25 ms at 500 PSI, the truck would idle just fine. If you cranked the ICP to 1500, the engine would really start pulling away from you. If you then ran the ICP up to 3000 PSI, it would be like putting your foot to the floor. I'm not saying that pulsewidth is not important, and pulsewidth accounts for a fair amount of fuel delivery control, but ICP is critical to proper fuel delivery.

I hope that makes some sense. I'm kinda wiped after a long day and brain is a little cloudy. LOL
 

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that makes sense to me. (I am very new to diesel tuning and am trying to learn as much as possible and soi is really fascinating me along with its correlations to soc.)

I understood the basics but i was not putting it all together the way you did. I was not considering the affects of soc on torque and hp curves. I never considered all of whats going on inside of a diesel pcm until i started getting into tuning my 7.3.

Also i just pulled my 50+ hp dd tune I have been working on and graphed it in excel (tuning software I'm using is a little unrefined in its graphing capabilities) and was glad to see my table was much more similar to yours than the other one posted. Smooth with similar timing to yours.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Ken,

We actually own the code for the PCMX software and graphics engine for which the Sniper software is based on. The Sniper software is pretty much the exact same software as our Minotaur software so the graphing, for all intents and purposes, should be identical. The disappointing thing (and where you're probably having difficulty) is that Sniper's diesel definitions are poorly defined and scaled, so the 3D rendering functions are pretty useless most of the time. Since the 7.3L and 6.0L tuning is the bulk of our business, we spend a great deal of time refining those definitions. One cool thing is that our version of the software actually lets you modify certain aspects of the definitions (scaling, labeling, notes, etc.), even with "secured" definitions. In fact, there are several improved features in our version of the software which greatly improve the flexibility.

Anyway, when you have some time post up your Excel graph. I'd be very interested to see how it's coming out for you. :D

If you have any other questions, please ask. I'm always help to help out where I can.

Take care.
 

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That's a really good question and the answer has a lot to do with both how ICP and RPM affect the injection event.

The first thing to consider is RPM. Common sense would dictate that as the RPM increases, timing needs to advance so that the combustion event COMPLETES at the optimal point in crankshaft rotation. If the injectors continued to fire at a static timing value, the fuel would still be burning as it exits the exhaust ports and the EGTs would be astronomical. That's not to mention that there simply wouldn't be any power whatsoever.

Second, any increase in ICP is going to have a corresponding change in Start of Combustion (SOC), even for the same Start of Injection (SOI) timing. Higher pressure will cause the fuel to spray faster and hotter, resulting in an inherent advance in SOC. There is already a table that addresses this issue and offsets the SOI to some degree. However, this table is designed to derive a TIME (in ms) value of injection offset which helps to automatically adjust SOI as RPM changes.

This leaves the MAIN SOI table. This table is designed to provide SOI offset values which are then added to the SOI values derived from the "TIME" calculations. The thing to remember is that as the engine becomes loaded and the mg/Stroke fuel increases, you want to turn down the SOI to some extent to help reduce cylinder pressure. In general, these ranges are in a fuel delivery range that indicate heavier engine loading, so cylinder pressure are a bit more critical. Also, while increasing SOI can help increase HP output in the mid-range, it has an undesired effect on the torque curve. Reducing SOI provides more post-TDC combustion and more push on the piston during the downward travel, this improving the torque curve.

One other thing to consider is that as your fuel delivery volume increases, there is already going to be an inherent increase in ICP. Give that most injection events must operate within a 1.5 - 2.0 ms (1.5 - 3.5 ms actual pulsewidth) window, ICP generall has more to do with fuel delivery control than pulsewidth does. If you put a truck in drive and ran the injectors at a flat 2.25 ms at 500 PSI, the truck would idle just fine. If you cranked the ICP to 1500, the engine would really start pulling away from you. If you then ran the ICP up to 3000 PSI, it would be like putting your foot to the floor. I'm not saying that pulsewidth is not important, and pulsewidth accounts for a fair amount of fuel delivery control, but ICP is critical to proper fuel delivery.

I hope that makes some sense. I'm kinda wiped after a long day and brain is a little cloudy. LOL
That makes total sense now on everything.
 

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Ken,

We actually own the code for the PCMX software and graphics engine for which the Sniper software is based on. The Sniper software is pretty much the exact same software as our Minotaur software so the graphing, for all intents and purposes, should be identical. The disappointing thing (and where you're probably having difficulty) is that Sniper's diesel definitions are poorly defined and scaled, so the 3D rendering functions are pretty useless most of the time. Since the 7.3L and 6.0L tuning is the bulk of our business, we spend a great deal of time refining those definitions. One cool thing is that our version of the software actually lets you modify certain aspects of the definitions (scaling, labeling, notes, etc.), even with "secured" definitions. In fact, there are several improved features in our version of the software which greatly improve the flexibility.

Anyway, when you have some time post up your Excel graph. I'd be very interested to see how it's coming out for you. :D

If you have any other questions, please ask. I'm always help to help out where I can.

Take care.
Bill (i am assuming),

You are correct the scaling is a joke I mean who will have 10000 degrees of timing? virtually all 3d mapping is useless. You can talk to them and they will change it for you but doing that for every template and every parameter would take forever and it should have been done right the first time.

I attached a jpeg of my sea level table not much changed from stock I am working on getting it to look a little better still. I am also working on tables to do the adders as well but that's more complicated due to the variables such as icp which changes so one would have to pick an icp, eot..... then look at the graph to see. It would be easier if you could copy and paste between programs but that's not possible so you have to hand enter everything.

I was on the fence about which way to go with minotaur or commando and finally just picked one and am at the point where I should have done a little more research before i pulled the trigger from what I have read your software is more refined than what I use and the scaleings of everything is a little annoying along with the data logging capabilities that appear at this point to be lacking.

I will not be shy about asking for help it will be a long process because I work on tunes while I am in school and my truck is 2 hours away. So maybe once a month or twice a month i get home to upload and try it . Tuning with a computer is very new I am must more accustom to blown big block chevys with mechanical injection, turning a distributor, changing chips in a msd box, pills and barrel valve adjustments, and when you want more boost you just swap pulleys. Luckily there is a lot of theory that translates.

thanks

ken
 

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Subbed. Very interesting. How outstanding is it that a tuner is actually willing to explain his art to his clientèle? Right on, man.
 

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This really is a great thread and I am very impressed with the level of information portrayed in here. I didn't realize there was a negative against Dp-TUner. I had horrible issues with my truck and spent lots of money trying to figure out what was going on only to find Eric @ Innovative had the tunes royally screwed up. I guess I'm so impressed with how Jody's are compared to my previous set of tunes that it never occurred to me there might be someone better out there.
 
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