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Torque Converter Comparison

24K views 57 replies 17 participants last post by  pizza pig 
#1 ·
So, it appears dispute the reputation the stock 5R110 converter has for being pretty reliable even under extreme tuning and all, I've smoked mine...probably from not changing the fluid, don't take advice from green service techs.

So, I hear a lot about bts-brians truck shop. They apparently use precision industries converters and seem to be well respected on the diesel forums. I've heard good things about suncoast too, but I haven't heard much about ATS. They are big on the GM forums, but rarely awe them mentioned here. They seem to make a good product, 5 year 500k mile warranty even for race applications. I'm basically looking for anyone's actual experience with any of these, have you seen them, side by side even? Better yet have you run one or two of them? They're all about the same cost, I don't mind spending the money if I only have to do it once. Thanks for you're input.

Oh, and truck should be around 500 at the rear wheels, but I don't intend on going any further with it. Used for daily driving, the occasional run against a mustang or camaro, and I tow occasionally. Thanks.
 
#2 ·
A buddy of mine had MANY problems with his ATS replacement and had a ton of issues in getting them to honor their warranty. Granted, this was several years ago, so draw your own conclusion.
 
#8 ·
Do you know what kind of issues? I really like the way theirs sounds on paper, good write up about em online, but it all really boils down to marketing.

I haven't read anything bad about precision industry's yet. Waiting on bts to give me a call back about them.
 
#3 ·
I had good luck with the suncoast converter that was in my truck from 2008 up until last spring. Some people don't like suncoast but I have no problem with them. Precision Industries converters are very good as well. If your tranny is fine, I would just do the converter at your power level.
 
#4 ·
Yea I haven't heard anything really but bad stuff about ATS (emphasis on heard/read). Either way though, I have heard good things about both PI and SunCoast TCs. I think those are solid bets. Another one that seems decent too is DPC. I like PI because they don't have a stupid core charge to mess with.
 
#5 ·
Cool. I just got off the phone with ATS, seemed knowledgeable, sounds like a good product, but who know. I'll call PI next. They say they use forged not billet stuff, forged being stronger yet. I'm sure they're all better than stock...as long as yo change your fluid.
 
#6 ·
Take it for what it's worth, but my bro-in-law is on his 8th fully built ATS in a year. Yea you read that right. He had them put the first one in Valentines day last year and its at a transmission shop as we speak getting the 8th one put in! This is in a 6.7 Cummins with a 66mm turbo and stock injectors. So the power level isn't above what ATS claims it should handle. On the bright side, they have stood behind it and sent him a brand new tranny every time.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Wow, seems like there's another problem there. I'm surprised they haven't just given him his money back at this point. Eons ago when I worked at advance auto, we'd get people that would continually bring us starter after starer or alternator after alternator and eventually we'd tell em to hit the road with a refund. Some of that might be due to crappy remain components, some was definitely because of other issues they had with their cars. At least ATS honors it. To their credit I called and immediately spoke with a guy who seemed very knowledgable. No recordings no transfers, no push 1 for English. That's a plus.

IIRC, BTS does not use Billet internals either.
Bts uses pi, who as mentioned earlier doesn't use billet, they use forged...still waiting on a call back to talk more about it with em.


There's also twisted diesel, very local to me, I literally drive by em everyday, supposedly they build a bad *** torqshift...but to be honest, I have a hard time trusting them...too many horror stories.
 
#10 ·
Precision industries finally emailed me back. They said their front cover (the part facing the flywheel) is billet steel, and uses 3 friction discs. There's is 1200 bucks, and to my knowledge doesn't involve a core charge. The ATS torque converter is 1350 plus shipping and a 400 dollar core charge. I've got another tc off a core engine, so I'm not too worried about the core charge, or the 150 dollar price difference. I'd say its down to these two converters...either the ATS five star, or the precision industries stallion.

They both come with 5 year warranty, both have billet front covers, the ATS has 5 clutch discs and he said was supposedly rated at 2400 ftlbs...the pi stallion has 3 discs. The ATS to me sounds like the best one on the market...but again that's reading the marketing, and talking with a salesman who obviously wants my money, lol...but it sounds like they've totally re-engineered the tc at ATS. Redesigned CNC stator...supposed to redirect fluid much more efficiently...key word - supposed to. Only thing reused is the impeller and rear cover. I'm leaning towards ATS, but that's because I've heard more about that one, hadn't got to speak to anyone at pi yet and really dive into what makes it great. Just thought I'd share my findings thus far.
 
#11 ·
I'd go with any 3 but everyone swears by Brian. So when I do my transmission over again ill go to ats or bts
 
#14 ·
dude PI all the way. them and DPC are the only ones known to hold up. way to many bad stories about ats! if everyone on here is saying PI and you want ats then get a ats but we all know whats better and whats proven! all the big builders in the industry that know what they are doing will tell you either PI or DPC
 
#18 · (Edited)
Huge multi quote here so bear with me.



Yeah after reading the ATS shiny website and talking with what seemed like a knowledgeable salesman I felt OK with them, but I kept thinking about something he said. I told em about the, tc clutch not engaging properly, that obviously pointed to the tc itself. The other issue I mentioned was the delayed p-r and p-d engagement. He told me this could also be the tc, but the more I think about it the less I think that's true...especially after talking to PI finally, who said that's BS. To top that off...I called back and spoke with someone else at ATS who was a waste of time...told me how the tc was a huge weak point of the 5r100...which isn't correct its 5r110, but anyway everyone I've spoken with says the stock unit is OK when maintained well. That was 20 minutes I'll never get back speaking with ATS. Now my PI conversation went great. I'll go with them for sure.

He had problems almost from the beginning and they didn't want to do anything to fix the problem. Here's a post from 2007 (his name is Brett and he went by AMMO22). Last I heard, he ended up getting a 12V Cummins and (I think) sold his SD. :(

LINK
Wow, that sucks.

I had may transmission built by Paul's transmission in Altanta, he used a DPC converter, so far I love the tranny and the converter. All DPC converter are custom built by Phill, and are known to handle the biggest powe on the 6.0 powerstroke. Pricing is right in line if not less that the PI, ATS or Suncoast.:icon_ford:
I might look into them tomorrow, I feel pretty good with PI now. Ever get those heads installed? I'm eager to see how that works out for you. I think they'll work well for you.

PATC billet converter would be another consideration in my search. Phil reuses cases where PI is all new parts. I would lean towards PI. No way I'd put an ATS or Suncoast in my truck.
Yeah, no core charge, I asked em about that and that's what they said as well. Said they've got signs hanging in their shop all over that say better to do it right the first time than have to do it twice. He said they don't push their employees for quotas or anything, he stressed to me how important it is to make customers happy, even said you can get a free 'freshen up' in the first 2 years, like if something else happened to go wrong in the trans and you wanted the tc looked over.

oof! You didnt just recommend PATC did you!? Ouch Mitch!



Okay, i see info in here that says ATS is feeding you BS, and totally throws the saying they have a wealth of knowledge, out the window. Along with it completely is just trying to tell someone who doesn't know what is in their stuff just to sell a product. Them saying they have a 5 friction disc converter is a joke, that is not true. There are not 5 frictions in any of their converters, i've seen a few apart that were "tripple disc. After seeing what their converters looked like in the past (machined stock parts) I would never even think about using their parts. Tripple disc means they have 3 frictions, not just adding up the number of frictions and steels which seems like what ats is doing.

Stick with a bts/rcd (precision built) or an off the shelf precision that uses the stock stator. Depending what charger you are using i'd stick with a lower stall or a stock stall for vgt chargers.
Yeah, I get that impression from them now, the first salesman I spoke with almost had me, except for what I mentioned earlier about the delayed reverse engagement being caused by the tc. He just wanted to sell me a converter.

I'm actually glad you chimmed in Greg, you got any insight on the delayed reverse engagement situation? I just changed direct drive solenoid and tcc solenoid.

Also, you said a bts (who uses precision) or off the shelf precision...I kinda take that to mean that bts specs the precision industries Tc to their own specs? I still need to talk with brian, but I had a very good conv with the dude at PI. Im kinda pissed at ATS now, even more so at the fact they almost had me won over. I'm glad I called back to talk with a different guy...cuz he told me way different stuff than the first guy. Kinda gave me the impression of telling me what he thought I wanted to hear.

And yeah I'm looking for stock or slightly lower stall. I'm not making a drag truck...honestly it'll see the beach and mountain trails more than the track, way more. Not to mention towing and just general street use.

Thanks so much for everyone's input. That's why these forums are great, gathering a good consensus on what has and hasn't worked out...almost like I've read that somewhere...
 
#15 ·
I had may transmission built by Paul's transmission in Altanta, he used a DPC converter, so far I love the tranny and the converter. All DPC converter are custom built by Phill, and are known to handle the biggest powe on the 6.0 powerstroke. Pricing is right in line if not less that the PI, ATS or Suncoast.:icon_ford:
 
#16 ·
PATC billet converter would be another consideration in my search. Phil reuses cases where PI is all new parts. I would lean towards PI. No way I'd put an ATS or Suncoast in my truck.
 
#17 ·
oof! You didnt just recommend PATC did you!? Ouch Mitch!

Precision industries finally emailed me back. They said their front cover (the part facing the flywheel) is billet steel, and uses 3 friction discs. There's is 1200 bucks, and to my knowledge doesn't involve a core charge. The ATS torque converter is 1350 plus shipping and a 400 dollar core charge. I've got another tc off a core engine, so I'm not too worried about the core charge, or the 150 dollar price difference. I'd say its down to these two converters...either the ATS five star, or the precision industries stallion.

They both come with 5 year warranty, both have billet front covers, the ATS has 5 clutch discs and he said was supposedly rated at 2400 ftlbs...the pi stallion has 3 discs. The ATS to me sounds like the best one on the market...but again that's reading the marketing, and talking with a salesman who obviously wants my money, lol...but it sounds like they've totally re-engineered the tc at ATS. Redesigned CNC stator...supposed to redirect fluid much more efficiently...key word - supposed to. Only thing reused is the impeller and rear cover. I'm leaning towards ATS, but that's because I've heard more about that one, hadn't got to speak to anyone at pi yet and really dive into what makes it great. Just thought I'd share my findings thus far.
Okay, i see info in here that says ATS is feeding you BS, and totally throws the saying they have a wealth of knowledge, out the window. Along with it completely is just trying to tell someone who doesn't know what is in their stuff just to sell a product. Them saying they have a 5 friction disc converter is a joke, that is not true. There are not 5 frictions in any of their converters, i've seen a few apart that were "tripple disc. After seeing what their converters looked like in the past (machined stock parts) I would never even think about using their parts. Tripple disc means they have 3 frictions, not just adding up the number of frictions and steels which seems like what ats is doing.

Stick with a bts/rcd (precision built) or an off the shelf precision that uses the stock stator. Depending what charger you are using i'd stick with a lower stall or a stock stall for vgt chargers.
 
#20 ·
glad you made the right choice! some people get on here and we tell them the best and then they end up saying well i went the route i was thinking anyways. smart choice!

the reverse situtation can be caused either by a faulty plug in the soleniod body or it could be the tranny on its way out. apparently there is a plug that is close to the dd soleniod somewhere and its plastic. what happens is the heat cycles warp the plug over time and it will go to leaking and it takes it a min for the pressure to build up. ford has a updated plug for this but not many people know about it. now this is just what i was told from a tranny builder around here but i havent confirmed that with andy because im just so stinkin happy with his tranny that he built that i dont care to ask questions anymore haha
 
#22 ·
The BTS/RCD converter is built to their specs, by precision. The PI units are stock or lower stall. I say go either route and be happy, knowing you have a reliable product with good support, and knowledge, instead of phone monkeys.

delayed reverse engagement, reverse uses the direct and low/reverse solenoid for engagement of the clutch, try replacing the low/reverse solenoid (solenoid E).
 
#29 ·
Precision Industries makes the rcd unit. Rcd has it spec'd to their liking, ditto for bts, so that's two of the best reviewed tc out there, both made by PI. I'm sensing a trend here, lol. My biggest problem now is I gotta figure out what else is wrong with my transmission.

If I can get the delayed drive/reverse engagement fixed hopefully I'll be all better. I'm still looking for info on the leaking plug issue, and I'll probably swap the low reverse solenoid while I'm in there again for good measure. It did something dumb this morning that it hadn't done since I changed the fluid and filters and all a week ago...I came to a stop and took off when the light turned green, but the trans never down shifted from 5th gear...it took off in 5th gear then slammed into 1st. I'm about ready to just call up bts with a credit card and be done with this mess.
 
#30 ·
Nothing wrong with BTS at all other than I have heard that they are back logged pretty good. Again this is what I heard. Calling will let you know how quickly would be able to get one. Either way though, I've heard great things about Warren's transmissions too. I've spoken with Andy before as well and he's a great guy to talk to. May be worth giving him a shout too. I know he has a real bargain of a transmission.
 
#31 ·
Yeah, I just got off the phone with brian. He's the perfect mix of well spoken, knowledgeable, professional, combined with that charm for lack of better words, I trust him basically. Some shops you call up and some derelict answers and maybe gives you the warm fuzzy feeling of down south courtesy, but you think, wow I bet this guy has a beer in his hand right now, lol. Brian was courteous and professional, talkative and informative but not in a 'scooters garage' kind of way. He obviously knows these trucks and trans in and out...not that I doubted that with how well recommended he was.

Anyway, now that I'm done confessing my man love for Brian, I also decided my precision converter will come from him. He specs his a little different, slightly lower stall and 'a few other little things' is all he would give up, but the way he described its function in his and his daughters truck was spot on what I'm looking for, about the same price as from precision in general.

On another note, he's just about got me convinced to pull mine apart and rebuild it with extra clutches on at least 3rd gear if not all of em. We spoke for about 30 minutes, he said their mack daddy trans is about 5500, which is the going rate for a stout trans for these. Unfortunately its also about 5000 out of my price range. He said swapping some parts in my self would save tons of money...he made a good point that after doing machine work on 6.0's all day I should have no issue throwing a 5r110 together. Still doesn't help my reverse engagement ordeal, I was truthfully hoping he'd say "yeah throw a low rev solenoid in it and you'll be good"...no such luck.
 
#32 ·
you can also call andy at warren diesel and he might be able to help. i run one of his trannies and love it! super strong and you know when it hits dd and reverse!
 
#33 ·
OK here is the deal with Andy and Warren. They used to run PATC converters and they held up good in Jesse's pulling truck. They had a bit of a disagreement with PATC and started installing Precision converters. OK all well and good, or is it. My friend Todd ordered a converter and some billet parts from Warren because the were a few hundred less than anywhere else. Well after digging in a little farther he found that Andy had switched to Precision of New Hampton and not Precision Industries and Andy thought PNH was the TC everyone used not PI. After a bunch of round and round and basically my friend Todd doing the leg work to get Warren set up as a distributor and all Andy had to do was call, now he is using thew correct PI Stallion converters. So take all this ask Andy stuff with a grain of salt. He may know how to build a transmission but I wouldn't take his advice on TC's. He was recommending Todd put in a converter with a 2100-2200 stall for a basically stock truck with a VGT turbo. Stock stall is 1800 and the Stallion of choice has a 1600 stall. You guys can take it from there.
 
#35 ·
with everything though andy has learned just like we all had to learn when starting something new. the guy knows trannies i can asure you that. he is and has learned from his mistakes on converters and is doing alot better since the switch to PI. Its kinda like me, i work on 6.0's all day long now with my new business, with that said though i still dont know some of the parts of that motor, ie lifters and cam and the few little things that are in the bottom end. not to say though that if a customer wanted a full bottom end rebuild i would dive in after it! and if it messed up well then yes its my fault and ill warranty it and learn from it at the same time. you dont learn until you try. andy has done way more than i can ask for. that PofH converter we had in my bros literally blew up 1k after we put the tranny in. i called andy and he said i know exactly what happend (stator let loose) so ill send you a whole new tranny. told him that its ok just send me a PI converter since you just got on with them and he said no im sending you a whole tranny with PI converter and paying shipping both ways plus fluid. this was all because he just wanted to check the tranny over when he already knew what went wrong. so im just sayin that andy has learned on the converters but the tranny part he knows what he is doing
 
#36 ·
Don't really intend to bash Andy and I know Warren warranty's their stuff. Even not knowing the difference between PofNH and PI I would have expected Andy to know with a stock VGT setup to drop the stall and not increase it. I understand the higher stall on a pulling truck with a non VGT turbo but not a street VGT setup.

And warrantying the trans when it blows a converter apart after 1000 miles is the right thing to do, not just replacing the converter. Any debris from the converter got sent through the transmission. But I sure as heck don't want to pay the labor to swap the trans out again after putting it in 1000 mikes ago, nor do I want to go through the work of doing it myself though I'm capable. I want to do it once and have it right the first time. I expect most people feel the same there.
 
#37 ·
no i know your not trying to bash it was ment more for explanation. and im sure andy would have paid the labor but i told him i would swap it since i own my own shop and it wouldnt be that big of a deal. plus it wasnt his work that messed up it was the crappy converter company that he used to use and which i know what it feels like to have to go in and warranty stuff and he has always more than hooked me up in despirate times so it was the least i could do
 
#39 ·
If you had clutch dust in the valve body for sure it go into the solenoids and your trans is toast. Doing a full flush, replacing the solenoids and installing the plugs might by you some time but I think you are looking at a full rebuild sooner than later.
 
#40 ·
Yeah that's the unfortunate conclusion I'm coming to. We'll see. Looking at buying up a used one, possibly throwing it in the truck, then rebuilding mine, or vice versa, buy one, build it and out it in. As I type this that option makes more sense. Then again selling the whole damn truck is also making more sense to me too.

Out of curiosity I tuned it back to stock, that was a mistake. It slips in reverse, and first now. Perhaps that's still a low/rev solenoid but I'm thinking the whole thing is on its way out. I don't want to dump a bunch of money into new fluid and solenoids for a bad trans. I might try a new low rev sol and another round of fresh fluid, who knows. I'm so tired of reading about transmission stuff I'm tempted to just fork out the money and buy a bts and be done with it.
 
#41 ·
Well, I'm done dumping money into this transmission...I'm pretty sure its headed south fast. On stock tuning it slips in first and reverse bad, possibly a solenoid, but I know its been compromised already. I'm taking a gamble and buying a used one from a dude at psn. He swears up and down its good, so hopefully so. I'm gonna order a bts converter as well. Hopefully that'll buy me enough time for me to build mine up right.

Anyone know of any good info on rebuilding a 5r110 stronger than stock...any info on machining down pistons to slip another clutch in, that kind of stuff. While brian did say to call if he could help me...I don't think he meant every 20 minutes to be my personal hotline, lol. Anyway, thanks all for the help in picking a converter.
 
#42 ·
Cant recommend buying a used 5r. Bought one from member Big Mule on here claimed no tuner and 77k miles on an 06. Trans was installed and worked fine for about 160 miles then failed internally and locked up the rear tires. Waste of 1k and he wouldnt split the difference, he just went silent. I thought a 500 refund would be fair.

Just spend the money the first time and be done with it. You dont know how long the trans has been sitting and varnish can build up in the solenoids. Im telling you, do it right the first time.
 
#46 ·
Wow yeah that sucks. I'm kinda taking someone at their word, but its cheap, only a few hundred bucks, and he showed me pics of the wrecked truck it came out of, and the pan, the solenoid body and all. Looks good enough to buy me some time. Worst case if it swap it in and it tanks I'm in the same boat I'm in now.

Is love to just drop 5500 on a bts and be done with it, but that's an outrageous amount of money. Got another kid on the way, trying to pay down debt, not accrue more, especially not when I could do it myself forbade fraction of that 5500...just need time. Or maybe I'll send the used one I buy off to someone like warren or bts. Who knows. I'll get it here and take a look and go from there.

give warren a call. he can get you hooked up alittle cheaper than a bts and its super stout!!!
I think I will, warren was great with the injectors...perhaps he could set me up for a reasonable amount.

good luck with the used trans
Thanks, I kinda hate trusting someone online you've never met and all, but oh well. I seen you had asked a guy on here about a used 5r for sale...he still has it, I talked with him too. Rebuilt pump and all...but I wonder why they rebuilt the pump then put it up for sale.
 
#43 ·
My converter went as well. I thought about buying a used one off craigslist or a forum. But I think I'm just going to have mine rebuilt with a billet converter for $2500. Doesn't seem like a bad deal to me. He will warranty it for a couple years too.
 
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