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Discussion Starter #1
So I've been using the .org's search function to diagnose my issues that I've been having lately. Most of the time a simple search is all that is needed and I find whatever it is I'm looking for without bothering to start a new thread.......Except this one. Just to get you up to speed I've been dealing with an injector issue as of late, trying to figure out exactly what it may be, bad or dirty injector, injector o-ring, etc. This is all based on the typical symptoms.
Things to rule out or at least take into consideration are the High Pressure Oil Pump, 4 injectors on one side & ICP have all been replaced within the last year. Oil, filter and fuel filter are on a regular basis changed, I know it's too often to change the fuel filter with every oil change but it's the easiest way for me to remember when to do it.

To the point, I was checking the fuel filter under the hood to see if it has turned black at all from oil infiltrating the fuel system from a bad o-ring or headstud, whatever it may be....and I heard a high pitch wistle, and watched my fuel drain right the hell out of the bowl. It didn't go out the drain plug on the back, I'm guessing the only place it could go is through an injector stuck in the open position?? Is there any other possibility? Is this common? What do you recommend? Thanks in advance. :dunno:
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Wow, I'm surprised no one yet knows where the fuel is draining to. Maybe I'm in the wrong forum?? :bump:
 

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so you are saying that you removed the fuel filter cap while the truck was off and it drained?
 

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Discussion Starter #4
yes....exactly!
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I did the balloon test, with confusing results. I expected to see some air from the drivers side bank but I got nothing from either.....
 

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and what do you think happened? the fuel went down into a cylinder?

if that was the case then you would have a hard time starting the truck with a cylinder filled with fuel.

did you think that maybe it went back to the tank?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
It crossed my mind, but I didn't think it was possible for the fuel to return to the tank unless there was pressure in the fuel line, i.e. engine running. Am I wrong
 

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theres nothing preventing it not to. the lift pump on the rail there is just a straight through piece, nothing holding fuel back.

i would assume that the fuel just returned to the tank and that sound you were hearing was just pressure from opening the cap

I have been wrong before but without you having any smoking, running, rough idle, lack of power from the truck it doesnt sound like you are having an injection issue.

like i said before if you were having fuel pass through an injection and fill a cylinder you would have a very hard time trying to start the truck with a cylinder totally filled up with fuel, you know?

I know because it happened to me and the motor was just totally locked. FYI if you do think it is going somewhere you can pull each glow plug out and see if any are wet. that there would tell you that fuel is going into places it shouldn't
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I have been wrong before but without you having any smoking, running, rough idle, lack of power from the truck it doesnt sound like you are having an injection issue.
Those are my exact symptoms, I had said it earlier, but I left out the details as to what exactly the typical symptoms are. To clarify I have skipping (missfire) really rough idle, lack of power, etc. It seems to smooth out at higher RPMs and at the beginning of this issue last week the truck ran smoother when it was warm, now since this this happened with the really rough idle and missfire it runs and idles better when it's cold.:dunno:

I understand what you are saying about the fuel and it being difficult to start. Strange thing is the fuel bowl doesn't drain when cold, but once it's warm it empties right out. Between this and the way it idles more roughly when it's warm it seems to be pointing to something that is expanding from heat and opening something up.....I'd really like to just be able to figure this out without having to take it to the dealer or a diesel tech. I think if anything I'll just get the codes pulled so I know wich injector to replace if that is infact what the problem is.
 

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getting the codes pulled wont necessarily show you the bad one. have them do an injection contribution test on each cylinder.

it could be making a sticky spool valve, or maybe the injector is just dead
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Wednesday it's going in to my diesel mechanic for the tests. I'll post an update
 

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Fuel pressure regulator stuck open at the secondary filter housing?

What is your fuel pressure when the symptom appears?

Why are you reluctant to take it to the dealer to diagnose your problem?

"Jettisoning" parts at it will be the far more expensive alternative, in your quest to fix your problem, as opposed to just paying for the proper diagnosis that WILL lead to the proper repair, if done by any tech that is familiar with working on these vehicles.

Checking for codes (if any appear), may not lead you down the path you are looking for. I would start with installing a fuel pressure gauge at the secondary fuel filter housing, and monitoring your fuel pressure at idle, and under load at full throttle. Factory specs are 56 psi and no lower than 45 psi. Are you using Ford/Motorcraft filters?
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Fuel pressure regulator stuck open at the secondary filter housing?

What is your fuel pressure when the symptom appears?

Why are you reluctant to take it to the dealer to diagnose your problem?

I would start with installing a fuel pressure gauge at the secondary fuel filter housing, and monitoring your fuel pressure at idle, and under load at full throttle. Are you using Ford/Motorcraft filters?
Thank you for showing some interest in my problem.
I have not checked the pressure. It didn't even cross my mind, I'm so stuck on the thought of it being an injector, and dreading the replacement of the other 4 since the last 4 were replaced. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge. I do have some fittings and old compressor gauges laying around along with a gauge for compression testing. Can I plumb up a fuel pressure gauge with what I have to test from the port at the secondary fuel filter, or does fuel use something different?
I use motorcraft filters.
It's not that I'm reluctant to take it to a dealer, I'm reluctant to spend more friggin $ on it if I don't have to. I dumped $600 on it at the beginning of the summer for A/C compressor. $3500 on high pressure oil pump and a bunch of other things. And there were the 4 injectors that were replaced 20 months ago. I bought it in December of 2007. This truck is killing me financially. However I did end up breaking down and making an appointment for a diagnosis next Wed (9/9/09).
But if I can find that there is something with the fuel pressure before that I would be very grateful!:)
 

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The sad part about this story is that I've seen it many times. The 6.0 does have a few quirks, and is especially picky about it's oil, and maintenance schedules, but the amount of "mis diagnosis" or $3000+ plus "shotgun approach" I've seen is crazy. Injector failures are common in any diesel, it's the nature of them. You would be amazed at how many of them I put in N14's. Like changing spark plugs.... But, it was not often I saw multiple injector failures on a single vehicle unless there was some other contributing factor (bad fuel, bad oil, overheated, etc,etc) Basically all I'm saying is that sometimes the 6.0 gets a bad rap from people who's bad experiences are caused by poor techs. Why did you have to put a hpop in it?
 

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I have not checked the pressure. It didn't even cross my mind, I'm so stuck on the thought of it being an injector, and dreading the replacement of the other 4 since the last 4 were replaced. I don't have a fuel pressure gauge. I do have some fittings and old compressor gauges laying around along with a gauge for compression testing. Can I plumb up a fuel pressure gauge with what I have to test from the port at the secondary fuel filter, or does fuel use something different?
Fuel pressure specs on a 6.0L are 56 psi at idle. It should not decrease to any less than 45 psi under load (at WOT). With those numbers in mind, you can plumb whatever the appropriate range of gauge you can find, that best suits this purpose.
I use motorcraft filters.
GOOD.:thumb:
It's not that I'm reluctant to take it to a dealer, I'm reluctant to spend more friggin $ on it if I don't have to. I dumped $600 on it at the beginning of the summer for A/C compressor. $3500 on high pressure oil pump and a bunch of other things. And there were the 4 injectors that were replaced 20 months ago. I bought it in December of 2007. This truck is killing me financially. However I did end up breaking down and making an appointment for a diagnosis next Wed (9/9/09).
But if I can find that there is something with the fuel pressure before that I would be very grateful!:)
Just out of curiosity. Are you getting any fuel contamination into the coolant? Were the injectors torqued down to the proper 24 ft-lbs. spec when they were replaced? To overtighten them is to achieve the same effect as undertightening them. That is one thing I am VERY religious about when replacing or installing new injector(s) on a 6.0L.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Fuel pressure specs on a 6.0L are 56 psi at idle. It should not decrease to any less than 45 psi under load (at WOT). With those numbers in mind, you can plumb whatever the appropriate range of gauge you can find, that best suits this purpose.

GOOD.:thumb:

Just out of curiosity. Are you getting any fuel contamination into the coolant? Were the injectors torqued down to the proper 24 ft-lbs. spec when they were replaced? To overtighten them is to achieve the same effect as undertightening them. That is one thing I am VERY religious about when replacing or installing new injector(s) on a 6.0L.
The 4 injectors that were previously replaced were done by my local ford dealership, the head diesel tech there is well known for his knowledge of powerstroke engines, so I assume he did everything to spec.

As far as the fuel pressure goes, I have a compression tester gauge, will that be okay? I don't know if the fuel pressure gauge works differently than other pressure gauges. In other words does it need a fuel return line? or is it just one line that dead ends right at the gauge. Also does fuel make it all the way down the test line or is it just filled with pressurized air? :dunno:
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The sad part about this story is that I've seen it many times. The 6.0 does have a few quirks, and is especially picky about it's oil, and maintenance schedules, but the amount of "mis diagnosis" or $3000+ plus "shotgun approach" I've seen is crazy. Injector failures are common in any diesel, it's the nature of them. You would be amazed at how many of them I put in N14's. Like changing spark plugs.... But, it was not often I saw multiple injector failures on a single vehicle unless there was some other contributing factor (bad fuel, bad oil, overheated, etc,etc) Basically all I'm saying is that sometimes the 6.0 gets a bad rap from people who's bad experiences are caused by poor techs. Why did you have to put a hpop in it?
I'm not sure if Im just misunderstanding what you are saying, but $3000 wasn't just thrown at it. It was quoted by the dealer after properly diagnosing it and pulling the HPOP.
The reason for the HPOP being replaced was my guess bad oil. When the mech pulled it out at the dealership I asked to take a look at it. He showed me how the oil was slightly darker and smelled burnt. I asked him if it was from improper maintenance (oil change) and he said "it could be, usually I don't change these out at this low of mileage". ( I had 101,000 at the time) I think he just didn't want to tell me the truth in fear of insulting me. The thing of it is I've been right on top of oil changes along with filter changes in the short time I've had the truck. I only use AMSOIL and Motorcraft. I'm guessing the dude who I bought this from who drove it 250 miles a day commuting in FL didn't take care of it the way he should have, and that really pisses me off, because I take care of everything I own, Its the reason I still have the first vehicle (93 wrangler) I ever owned.......now I just want to get rid of this thing and cut my losses.
 

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I'm not sure if Im just misunderstanding what you are saying, but $3000 wasn't just thrown at it. It was quoted by the dealer after properly diagnosing it and pulling the HPOP.
The reason for the HPOP being replaced was my guess bad oil. When the mech pulled it out at the dealership I asked to take a look at it. He showed me how the oil was slightly darker and smelled burnt. I asked him if it was from improper maintenance (oil change) and he said "it could be, usually I don't change these out at this low of mileage". ( I had 101,000 at the time) I think he just didn't want to tell me the truth in fear of insulting me. The thing of it is I've been right on top of oil changes along with filter changes in the short time I've had the truck. I only use AMSOIL and Motorcraft. I'm guessing the dude who I bought this from who drove it 250 miles a day commuting in FL didn't take care of it the way he should have, and that really pisses me off, because I take care of everything I own, Its the reason I still have the first vehicle (93 wrangler) I ever owned.......now I just want to get rid of this thing and cut my losses.
My point was that many of the "horror stories" I see with the 6.0 usually stem from one of, or a combination of two things:

1. Improper/deferred/neglected maintenance (not changing oil at correct intervals, not changing fuel filters. Running improper fuel. Air filters, etc, etc. I will include poor driving habits in this category also. (extended idling, repeated short trips, no load operation) This happens a lot when people buy these trucks and really don't have a legitimate use for them other than occasionally hauling the boat. (6.0 engines do much better when maintained correctly, and worked (not abused).

2. Improper diagnosis. Whether it is independent shop, or dealer. These trucks have a fairly sophisticated injection and engine management system, and it takes good training and good skills to effectively work on them. Frankly there are some "Master Techs" I've seen in my days as a tech, that had no business working on anything that had a computer. These are the "old school" guys that could not, or would not keep up with the changes. And in some cases, another problem is created during the repair of the current issue. Don't get me wrong here, I'm not insinuating this is what happened to you.

But you proved my point about number 1 when you stated the previous owner did not take care of it. This can happen to any vehicle that is not maintained. But with 6.0 trucks, proper maintenance is absolutely vital to their longevity.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
But you proved my point when you stated the previous owner did not take care of it. This can happen to any vehicle that is not maintained. But with 6.0 trucks, proper maintenance is absolutely vital to their longevity.
As I learned this the hard way....
I brought it in for the diagnostic test yesterday and the results were cyl #4 injector not contributing. When I learned this I asked the tech what his advice was on the other 3 injectors...should I replace all 4 in that bank for a total of 8 new injectors, assuming that the other 3 only have a short time left before they self destruct. Or just replace the one failed injector. He suggested just the one.

So my question to you is can bad oil leave deposits in the injectors or the path of injectors years later waiting to do damage when pushed through either old or new injectors? Or would you say it's safe to say as long as proper maint. is continued the other 3 injectors should be okay?

Let me know if my way of thinking is way off so I can pull my head out of my arse, but it seems to me that the failing of 5 out of 8 injectors even though I've met all the preventative maintenance requirements since I've owned it is because of damage that was done before hand making the injectors a ticking time bomb so to speak. :dunno:

Should I sample the oil for contaminants?
 

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Oil samples are good for preventative maintenance to see if you have problems beginning to occure. Fuel Dilution, coolant in oil(trace amounts), bearing wear, etc. etc.

If I remember correctly the 2003 trucks have c94 injectors which were problematic to begin with, and the problems are compounded with poor maintenance.

If you have had 5 of the 8 go bad in this period of time, most likely the damage has already been done. It really depends on what you can afford.

If it were my truck, I would replace the other 3 at the same time, and make sure they were the updated designs. Keep in mind everytime you have to tear into the engine, you create another possibility for someone to leave a bolt loose, drop somthing in the engine. etc, etc.

If complete replacement is not in your budget, then I would suggest using good oil, changed no later then 6K miles, (synthetic if possible), a bypass filter system (which can help keep particulate contamination to a minimum), and run injector cleaner through your fuel system on a regular basis. .. Personally I would do these items even if I replaced the injectors just to ensure their long life also.
 
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