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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Oil pressure question updated!!!!.

I just bought an 04 Excursion. I had 2 dealers check it and a local diesel power shop check it before i bought it and they all gave it a clean bill of health. it has 83k on it and when i bought it was running great would start within 3-4 sec every time.
But i noticed one tire wearing weird so i took it to get it aligned and come to find out all 4 ball joints were bad. So i park it and wait to get it fixed and aligned.

I finally get all that done and go for a trip out of town and do some decent amount of driving and I'm impressed with the power and fuel milage according to the Edge insight that i put on it said 18 mpg on the highway.

Any how i get back and stop at the grocery store to let the wife run in and get some stuff and i notice my check gauge light comes on and i notice there is no oil pressure so i freak out and shut it down quickly. I get out and check the oil and its showing full. I think well thats weird i wonder if the pressure sending unit is going out so i start it back up and it fires right up. the oil pressure is ok but in about a min when it is idling at about 600 the gauge drops. i rev it up and the gauge pops right up. So I'm figuring its the sending unit. So i shut it down and wait for the wife then go about 3 miles home hop in her car and go get a unit. I come home put it on the next day.
Now the truck won't start. It turned over for 10 sec nothing i waited then 10 sec and no start. I did this one more time and about at 8 sec or so it fires up. and the oil pressure jumps up like it should i let it idle for a min or so and then the pressure drops again.
SO now I'm thinking my oil pump might be getting weak.

Is this a common problem? Do you think my logic on this is sound? What other things might i consider.

The only mods i have done on the truck while i was waiting on the ball joints was to put the insight on put a SCT economy tune on it and put a 4 in turbo back mbrp exhaust on it.

Any thoughts or help would be appreciated.
 

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Low pressure and High pressure oil systems

First off your thinking is basically sound. You are on the right track but to tell for shure if it is an oil pressure problem you need to have it scanned by a real scanner on live data or use a monitoring device like a ScanGauge or Tuner, or use a mechanical test gauge at the testing port on the filter houseing.
Fords dash gauge is unreliable not much more than a idiot light.

There are 2 oil systems on a 6.0 the low pressure system min.45 psi that lubes the engine and also supplies oil to the HPOP resivoir. 500 to 3000 psi that works the injectors, the pcm has to see min of 500 psi or it will not let the injectors work. The injectors are electricaly controled but hydraulicly activated by the High Pressure engine oil.

The low pressure pump is a gear/rotor type pump mounted on the crankshaft between the Harmonic balencer and the front cover which forms the back side of the pump. Excess wear of the gears or the cover can cause pressure/flow loss as well as a defective pressure regulator which is also part of the front cover.

There is another failure point for the low pressure system and that is in the oil filter houseing. The wrong filter and cap combination will not properly close the filter drain valve allowing pressure/flow loss. There is also a plastic center stalk that has the filter bypass valve mounted in the top and sealed at the bottom by an oring. Failure of any of these can cause pressure/flow loss as well.

The High pressure pump is mounted in a cavity in the valley of the block underneath the intake manifold and the turbo. The 03 model used a wobble plate type pump and was replaced in05 by a more reliable piston type pump.
The oil is delivered to the injectors thru an oil rail and associated harware mounted on top of the injectors sealed by orings in the top of the injectors.
The high pressure system is controlled by the pcm by a sensor [icp] which reports system pressure to the pcm and regulated by a electrical regulator valve [IPR].

Just a little information to help you understand your oil systems.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So if I'm understanding correctly the filter housing could be the issue also. Because of a check valve drain issue. So basically this can be checked by just opening the top of the filter housing to see if its full or not?

Also about the Hpop can my 04 be upgraded to the 05up pump later if i want?




There is another failure point for the low pressure system and that is in the oil filter houseing. The wrong filter and cap combination will not properly close the filter drain valve allowing pressure/flow loss. There is also a plastic center stalk that has the filter bypass valve mounted in the top and sealed at the bottom by an oring. Failure of any of these can cause pressure/flow loss as well.
 

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if its not running weird or funny i doubt your having pump issues and if your oil press drops to low the truck cannot run. oil is what powers a diesel. it be betting on the check valve or something stupid i bet your pumps are fine. just have them double checked and are you throwing any codes?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
if its not running weird or funny i doubt your having pump issues and if your oil press drops to low the truck cannot run. oil is what powers a diesel. it be betting on the check valve or something stupid i bet your pumps are fine. just have them double checked and are you throwing any codes?

Nope no codes. How do I check the pumps? There is no option that I noticed on the cts or the sct tuner.
 

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I would check the oil pressure with a real gauge to see what it actually is. Check when it's good and warm, and when the dash gauge is showing 0. There is a pressure regulator for the lube oil that may be sticking,bad,crudded up...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I would check the oil pressure with a real gauge to see what it actually is. Check when it's good and warm, and when the dash gauge is showing 0. There is a pressure regulator for the lube oil that may be sticking,bad,crudded up...
Isnt that regulator mounted on the pump housing? Can it be removed and cleaned with out removing the pump?
 

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1. When you unscrew the cap it will allow the filter to come up and the valve to open. The cap is what holds the filter down, which is why a mismatched filter and cap can cause problems. A shorter filter with the wrong cap and it won't reach far enough to close the drain valve. Use only motorcraft/racor filters and the Ford cap together.

A simple test is remove the FICM fuse remove the filter and with a screwdriver hold down on the black button valve at the 1 oclock position. Have a helper roll the engine over and see if oil comes into the houseing. It should fill within a few seconds. If not you have a pump or regulator issue of the low pressure pump.

2. The pumps are not interchangeable the 05 block was modified to accomodate the pump and some of the plumbing was changed as well.
However there is an updated pump for the 04 available.

3 The regulator is mounted at the bottom front of the cover and has a pipeplug like cover. It can be removed and cleaned but most failuers are the spring breaks or gets weak.
 

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Okay... If the oil pressure guage on the dash drops at idle, but comes up off idle then the most likely cause is the HPOP. There is a ball bearing that presses into the side of the pump that falls out.

You can try a sender first and see if that fixes it, but most likely it is the pump. The pump may not actually be bad, just the ball falls out. Unfortunately the only true "fix" is to replace the pump.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Okay... If the oil pressure guage on the dash drops at idle, but comes up off idle then the most likely cause is the HPOP. There is a ball bearing that presses into the side of the pump that falls out.

You can try a sender first and see if that fixes it, but most likely it is the pump. The pump may not actually be bad, just the ball falls out. Unfortunately the only true "fix" is to replace the pump.
Sorry but that dosnt make sence to me. How is the hpop bad because I dont have a low pressure oil reading from the low pressure pump on the dash?
 

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I believe a2elvis was referring to the 03 pumps that had a small ballbearing valve on the pump. This valve would sometimes fall out the hpop would loose so much oil that the low pressure pump could not keep up and show low pressure.

You have an 04 but many of the early 04's had 03 engines. A easy way to tell if there is a sensor in the front passenger valve cover it is a true 04 with a 04 engine. If not it is a 03 engine.

I believe the upgraded oil pump has an actual pipe plug as one of the upgrades/improvements.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I believe a2elvis was referring to the 03 pumps that had a small ballbearing valve on the pump. This valve would sometimes fall out the hpop would loose so much oil that the low pressure pump could not keep up and show low pressure.

You have an 04 but many of the early 04's had 03 engines. A easy way to tell if there is a sensor in the front passenger valve cover it is a true 04 with a 04 engine. If not it is a 03 engine.

I believe the upgraded oil pump has an actual pipe plug as one of the upgrades/improvements.
My excursion was manufactured 1-04 and it has a sensor in the front of the passenger side valve cover. Is that good or bad?
 

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My excursion was manufactured 1-04 and it has a sensor in the front of the passenger side valve cover. Is that good or bad?
K, all 03 and 04 engines manufactured had the same HPOP. It is an aluminum body pump that has a cast iron cover over it. On the 03 and early(round egr cooler) it will have the ICP sensor in the back of the engine and screws into the HPOP cover.

The late(square egr cooler) 04 has the ICP sensor in the valve cover on the passenger side. The HPOP is the same either way. The ball bearing that I am referring to was installed as a plug for the bore hole when the pump is manufactured. The ball bearing pops out and the low pressure oil bleeds out the side of the pump.

I have purchased several ford reman pumps and they still use the ball bearing as the plug. I would recommend an aftermarket pump or stake the area around the ball bearing in the new pump from ford to try and prevent that from happening again.

Hope that helps.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
K, all 03 and 04 engines manufactured had the same HPOP. It is an aluminum body pump that has a cast iron cover over it. On the 03 and early(round egr cooler) it will have the ICP sensor in the back of the engine and screws into the HPOP cover.

The late(square egr cooler) 04 has the ICP sensor in the valve cover on the passenger side. The HPOP is the same either way. The ball bearing that I am referring to was installed as a plug for the bore hole when the pump is manufactured. The ball bearing pops out and the low pressure oil bleeds out the side of the pump.

I have purchased several ford reman pumps and they still use the ball bearing as the plug. I would recommend an aftermarket pump or stake the area around the ball bearing in the new pump from ford to try and prevent that from happening again.

Hope that helps.
So where does this ball go? Do I have to worry about this thing being lost and getting into something it shouldn't?

Where would you suggest getting a hpop from?
 

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The ball could end up in the oil pan... Haven't seen the ball cause an internal engine issue as far as damage is concerned.

So probably don't have to worry about the ball. Adrenaline sells an upgraded HPOP for the early model 6.0. I don't have first hand experience with it though.

If you use an OE pump just make sure that you stake the ball in this time, hopefully it won't happen again.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
The ball could end up in the oil pan... Haven't seen the ball cause an internal engine issue as far as damage is concerned.

So probably don't have to worry about the ball. Adrenaline sells an upgraded HPOP for the early model 6.0. I don't have first hand experience with it though.

If you use an OE pump just make sure that you stake the ball in this time, hopefully it won't happen again.
I talked to those guys that sell that pump and I told them every thing that was going on and they said they would sell me a pump but that it wasnt my problem. If the ball had come out then my truck would not run at all. Which it will still run but it takes about 8 to 10 sec to start and the pressure drops on low idle.
 

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Like I said before if your going by the dash gauge your just wasteing your time, it only reads 7 psi and only works that gauge. The pcm never sees a signal from that sensor. The wireing does not even pass thru the pcm so it can't read it. Look at any wireing schematic.

The only signal the pcm reads or cares about is the one from the ICP
 

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Like I said before if your going by the dash gauge your just wasteing your time, it only reads 7 psi and only works that gauge. The pcm never sees a signal from that sensor. The wireing does not even pass thru the pcm so it can't read it. Look at any wireing schematic.

The only signal the pcm reads or cares about is the one from the ICP
I have a gauge on order right now. Im not arguing with you.
 

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If the ball had come out then my truck would not run at all. Which it will still run but it takes about 8 to 10 sec to start and the pressure drops on low idle.
Well unfortunately that show just how much they dont know. There is a big difference between KNOWING and THINKING. They dont KNOW that the truck wont run, they THINK the truck wont run.

I KNOW that the truck will run with the ball bearing missing, I have seen it numerous times.

That being said I do not know for sure that the ball bearing is your problem, pretty tough to diag over the internet...:doh: But it sure sounds familiar...
 

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I have a gauge on order right now. Im not arguing with you.
Didn't think you were. Just trying to stress useing the dash gauge is for any diagnostic purposes is useless.

I apologize if it came across that way.
 
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