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Starter manufacturers in their wisdom, ground the brushes thru the end cap of the starter. Looking at the starters in the vid, you can see where there could be corrosion in the "joints" connecting the end cap to the starter main housing.

Any loss of current in these joints will act as if the starter is "bad" ... you could clean the joints or just replace the starter, with high miles it may only put off the inevitable.
 

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Key on engine off:
Voltage 12.25v (Dropped to 11.81v when trying to start).
That does not look good to me...

FAR Too Little voltage drop. Your Glow Plugs are Not working properly. You should see it drop much closer to 10v (especially with undercharged batteries) if you were applying the load of a good GP system.

Get your starter issues resolved, diagnose the GPR -> https://www.powerstroke.org/forum/99-03-7-3l-general-discussion/121643-troubleshooting-gpr-gps.html
 

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You are right on that @NoRalPh, I was only considering the starter, missed the glow plug draw

Testing the glow plug voltage drop at the valve cover connection could be done like this:
An amp clamp would be best, but not everyone has one to use.

Take a paper clip, bend the leg out straight, get sand paper or a fingernail file and round the tip, you can then use the rounded tip to push in the backside of a connector without damaging the wire insulation to touch the terminal, connect your meter and test for voltage, as compared to the battery.

There are actual tools made this way with fancy connectors and wires on the Snap On truck, another handy tool : take an insulated alligator clip, a short piece of small wire, and a butt splice; to make a clip on adapter for your meter(mash the butt splice slightly to make your meter tip a slip fit)
 

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Discussion Starter #64
I had suspected a GPR earlier - and had replaced the solenoid a week or so back. I dunno if that small drop really means anything - because I was fiddling with my computer and FORScan for several minutes before turning the key to "start". Chances are that the relay would have already been disabled before I even thought about turning the key to the start position.

That does not look good to me...

FAR Too Little voltage drop. Your Glow Plugs are Not working properly. You should see it drop much closer to 10v (especially with undercharged batteries) if you were applying the load of a good GP system.

Get your starter issues resolved, diagnose the GPR ->

I saved my logs - I'll review them again and see if I can tell how long the system was logging before I turned the key to the 'start' position. Chances are, though - that I started logging well after the glow plug relay would have shut off. (I've got 4 logs to peruse and look through, though - and I videoed my attempts - so may have a way to check how long).

I've got the batteries on the charger at the moment - and the block heater plugged in. About to pull the starter motor again and double check what I can. I recently changed the starter on my F150, and I have to say - I'm pleased with how Ford makes their starters available to work on easily compared to my other trucks I've owned.

I know I'm going about my diagnosis in a seemingly scattered (and frustrating) method - but I'm certainly learning more about my 7.3 the deeper I dive into things.

I'll have to think on your method described below. Is this to measure voltage at the connector when the relay/solenoid is actually activated to see the voltage at the connector?

You are right on that @NoRalPh, I was only considering the starter, missed the glow plug draw

Testing the glow plug voltage drop at the valve cover connection could be done like this:
An amp clamp would be best, but not everyone has one to use.

Take a paper clip, bend the leg out straight, get sand paper or a fingernail file and round the tip, you can then use the rounded tip to push in the backside of a connector without damaging the wire insulation to touch the terminal, connect your meter and test for voltage, as compared to the battery.

There are actual tools made this way with fancy connectors and wires on the Snap On truck, another handy tool : take an insulated alligator clip, a short piece of small wire, and a butt splice; to make a clip on adapter for your meter(mash the butt splice slightly to make your meter tip a slip fit)
 

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Discussion Starter #65
At about 33 seconds of logging on this particular screenshot, the voltage raises from 11.19 back up to about 12.25 I believe this to be the tail end of the GPR being activated.
http://www.bohemianutopia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/OScope_Ba.jpg


Here - is a later view (from the next log sequence) - during which I tried 5 times to start the engine. Each time, the voltage dropped from 12.25 to about 11.88v
http://www.bohemianutopia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/OScope_Ca.jpg


(for some reason my photos are not showing on screen in the forum - so I went back and added the direct links to my site's hosted photos)
 

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I have No Idea what it is I'm looking at there...

Your voltage only drops 1/2v, your IPR is stuck at 14%, and what's with the ICP pressure? (4.1?????) And where's your RPM? It never moves? I don't see cranking on this at all, I mean, the starter engaging alone has got to cause more than that 1/2v drop...
 

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Discussion Starter #67
The starter motor solenoid clicked - but never engaged to turn the motor over. The ICP and IPR numbers are irrelevant since the starter motor didn't engage to make any movements of any of the other sensors. RPM - yes - never moved... because the starter motor never turned the engine.

GPR engaged = 1+ volt drop. raises back up when disengaged.

Key to 'start' and voltage drops to 11.8 - yet doesn't turn the starter motor on - just clicks at it's solenoid under the truck.

I have No Idea what it is I'm looking at there...

Your voltage only drops 1/2v, your IPR is stuck at 14%, and what's with the ICP pressure? (4.1?????) And where's your RPM? It never moves? I don't see cranking on this at all, I mean, the starter engaging alone has got to cause more than that 1/2v drop...
 

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That’s got to be a bad connection then. Proper voltage is being sent to the starter but it is just clicking. Crawl underneath the truck and put your multimeter on the positive post of the starter. Have someone turn the key and see how much voltage you get there. If you get anything about 10V, the wiring to the starter is good. From there, it could be the starter itself or a bad connection.

See if you can get your jumper pack hooked directly to the starter. That will bypass all your wiring and send straight voltage to the starter. If it still clicks, and your jumper pack is known to be good, then replace the starter.

First step is to get the truck cranking consistently. Then go deeper into diagnostics.
 

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Re-read post 58 and 61, what I mentioned about the starter. :)

I have a rebuilder close to me so getting parts is usually not much trouble, but manufacturers intend for you to just replace rather than repair.

You could jump from the small terminal on the actual starter solenoid to the battery cable, to bypass the entire starting system ,...just be safe about it
 

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Discussion Starter #72
Been a busy work week - and thankfully, I'm not relying on this particular truck for my work (yet). Today was my day to get under the truck and see what I could figure out.

As far as I can tell - the clutch safety interlock switch is working just fine. If I don't push in the clutch - it won't even give a click when I turn the key. Clutch in, and signal is sent through.

This afternoon, I'm ordering a new starter motor from RockAuto. I hooked up a known good battery from my F150, and am still getting the loud starter motor clicks. The starter is getting a full 12.4v with the known good battery (measured at the starter terminal - and only dropped about .3v when I tried turning the key. No dice with it turning the starter motor.

So - current pertinent question:
My F250 has a build date of 02/2001. In Feb of 2001, they switched from a 3-bolt starter design to a 2-bolt design. My bell housing has 3 bolts. My current starter is a 2-bolt starter. As far as I can tell - I can purchase either a 3-bolt or a 2-bolt starter and either *should* bolt up just fine. Pricing between them is negligible (a buck or so difference). My inclination would be to go a 3-bolt (more ground points) - but in reality - it may not matter. (the AC Delco runs about $145 (and no core charge) - and is rated at 4.83 HP (3.60 kW)

Motorcraft seems to be afraid to give specs on their models. Google was not my friend for finding that info on the Motorcraft starters.

Thoughts?
 

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I can’t testify to their diesel starter motors, but when I worked at an automotive shop, we used lots of AC Delco starters and warrantied them for 3yr/100K miles. I never saw one have issues. That was gasoline engine starters though.

Good to know the clutch switch is working properly. Getting closer and closer to success, keep it up.
 

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Discussion Starter #74
2018-12-09 Update: New starter motor installed (AC Delco). This one is MUCH larger (longer) than the old one, and is a 3-bolt starter - the old one removed is a 2-bolt starter. Wow - what a good sound to have a nice strong starter turning the motor over. I believe the old one was on it's way to death when I got the truck. Now that the motor is turning over, I can resume my work.

This log in the graph below shows about 20 seconds of time. I started logging data AFTER the glow plug relay shut off (a meter on the switched side of the GPR indicated to me when the relay was disabled).

This shows cranking beginning at around 3.7 seconds - and ending at about 16 seconds on the graph. During cranking - the engine coughed a few times - like it WANTED to start.. and white smoke came from the exhaust. I've just now got the block heater plugged in - and will be testing the glow plug leads AGAIN at the harness in the morning for continuity and resistance measured for each plug.

While cranking:
(Red) - ICP psi ranged from about 2183psi to 2603psi (during cranking)
(Lime Grn) - IPR % ranged from about 38.29% to 40.23%
(Teal) - There is another ICP reading in FORScan - and it reads the same range - however in intervals (anyone know what this is?)
(Magenta) - RPM's ranged from 170-280 RPM's during this period
(Yellow) - a 2nd RPM reading in FORScan (ranged from 153-296 RPM)
(Blue) Voltage Ref. Ranged from 4.99-5.01v
(Pink) - Battery Voltage - 12.19v (after GPR shutoff, but before cranking), to 10.31v while cranking
(Orange) - Engine oil temp: ~50 Deg. F.
 

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Where to go from here? I can’t give any insight to those numbers. Are you sure the compression is sufficient? Without it you can’t properly compress or ignite the fuel. I’m just thinking over the basics. Compression and fuel for diesels. Bad fuel? Low compression? Does white smoke indicate coolant or....?
 

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Discussion Starter #76
After I double check the GP resistances tomorrow with a new (higher quality) meter - I really don't know, yet. I have no idea, yet on compression, since these aren't as simple as pulling a spark-plug and throwing in a compression gauge... YouTube and Google has been my friend on some of these procedures.

Is it possible to get resistances in the correct range of about .5 to 1.5 Ohms (measured at the pins on the valve cover harnesses) and have bad glow plugs?

Someone in an earlier post in this thread (post #11) asked if I was getting white or black smoke from the exhaust - and that white was most likely unburned fuel. The last time the truck started - it had a LOT of white smoke first. I let the truck run for about an hour - then turned it off. This was way back on October 23rd that it last ran.

Where to go from here? I can’t give any insight to those numbers. Are you sure the compression is sufficient? Without it you can’t properly compress or ignite the fuel. I’m just thinking over the basics. Compression and fuel for diesels. Bad fuel? Low compression? Does white smoke indicate coolant or....?
 

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Discussion Starter #77
New multimeter - so took measurements again of the low plugs (top position is closest to firewall)

Drivers Side ( Ohms):
.8
.7
.8
.9

Passenger side:
.9
.7
.7
.8

Resistance and conductivity tested from GPR to each of the harness terminals to the valve cover. All had continuity, and measured at 0 Ohms to .2 Ohms. Battery voltages (after charging overnight) were at 13.19v (pass side) and 13.1v (drivers side). EOT when trying to start was right at 52 deg. F. (that's what ambient outside temp is at the moment, also). I had plugged in the block heater overnight - and was expecting warmer temps than 52F for the EOT (Yes - I realize that the block heater warms the coolant, and not the oil - but some heat conduction from overnight would have been expected). So - The block heater was resistance tested. Open circuit on the block heater - so it's not warming anything, any more. I took a pic of the under side of the engine / oil pan a few weeks ago with my FLIROne - and at the time - it showed a WARM oil pan. So - maybe the block heater bit the dust overnight while plugged in. (Or if it's thermostatically controlled - it may be correct with an open reading - but I don't know if it's thermostatically controlled or not).

At my temps, though - block heater shouldn't be needed.

Crank & crank, no start. Got some sputtering & an occasional cough - but no start. Sprayed a shot of brake cleaner down the air intake. Still no start. I did notice after analyzing the data stream, that when the engine would cough and act like it * wanted * to start - that RPM's raised from about 175RPM up to about 225-317 RPM. Not gonna try starter fluid.

While cranking (on my last data stream) - I had the following parameters
ICP: 2192-2474psi range
IPR: 37.89-39.84%
RPM: 166-180 rpm - except when coughing - would jump to 225-317rpm
Voltage: Before crank: 12.31v , during crank: 10.75v (and when RPM's raised, voltage slightly raised)
 

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With those numbers, it should start. Curious if your monitor shows Sync or not?
Cranking sounds even? No slurping or hissing in the intake?

Getting fuel, glow plugs working, at least a little compression = should see smoke, ...fuel spray gets on the glow plugs and makes white smoke, that burns really easily, ...aand off we go, ...usually

Gonna have to go back and re-read all this to see where we are :)
 

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Discussion Starter #79 (Edited)
I'm unfamiliar with Sync... Is that something to add in to look at in FORScan?
At this rate - I'm going to have most of the maintenance needs down pat for this truck. So far I've:

Put in 10-gallons of fresh diesel
- Suctioned out fuel bowl (and cleaned it out) - The fuel system refilled and pressurized the fuel in the bowl. (note - my fuel drain doesn't drain - so I manually drained the bowl to clean it out. I have a new fuel bowl filter, however have not replaced the filter, as the current one appears pretty darned clean.
-Have NOT tried pulling the pigtail from the fuel bowl heater - would a bad one cause a no-start situation? I figured a shorted one would blow a fuse, Is there a resistance range to test it? I can try pulling the pigtail this afternoon and seeing if it'll start.
- Oil is in the hatch-marks on the dipstick, HPOP oil reservoir is full (within 1/4" of top).
- Verified glow plug resistances and continuity of the lines supplying power to the GP harness connector.
Replaced:
-Crank Position Sensor (CPS)
-Glow Plug Relay (GPR)
-IPC Valve
-IPR Sensor (but did not change the pigtail)
-MAP Sensor
-Starter Motor (replaced this week - after my old one bit the dust and would only give a solenoid click)

I has asked before about the IDM module that's in the wheel well - and was told that if that was the problem, then I'd be throwing codes associated with that module. When FORScan connects to the truck - it shows connection to: PCS, ECS, GEM, and ABS modules - but never lists the IDM - and I don't know if it's supposed to. Can you tell me if it is supposed to list it as well?

Codes that seem to stick around lately:
P0107 (MAP Sensor)
B0603 (KAM - Keep Alive Memory)
Occasional codes:
B1352
B1483

(edit - I just went through all the fuses in the interior panel as well as the power distribution panel under the hood. There were (2) fuses blown under the hood. #1, and #3 - both (if my diagram I found is correct) show being for the trailer tow package.)
 

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Discussion Starter #80
This was message #2 in this thread - by DieselDC.

High mileage with worn injectors will do this. Popper valves are out of spec. When motor oil is warm, they are “in spec” and easy to start. After staying that, could be a few more things that will allow hard starts such as injector oil rings leaking, hpop system draining down, lpop worn etc
I was told the same thing this morning by another diesel mechanic. Eerily - almost the same words - that reminded me of the thread mention early on.

Today - I did a buzz test. The audio (which I recorded) sounded strong for all 8... then muted for all injectors - except #5 - which also sounded loud.

I gave the intake a pretty good blast of brake cleaner. The truck sputtered, shook, rattled, rolled.. and came to life. I let it idle for an hour. Then I shut it off - and it fired right up again while warm. So I ran a buzz test while warm. Injector sounds were more pronounced - with #8 being the loudest one this time.

The price of injectors scared me. Plus - if the injector cups need changing also - then I just don't know if I've got the knowledge to do that... We'll see... I suppose I wanted to exhaust all the other possibilities before getting to the expensive one - that was likely the problem all along - and had been called by DieselDC.

The DTC codes were reset. SES light is still on - and the following are current in the system:
P0107 - MAP sensor low
B1352 - Ignition key in circuit fault

I've got options to weigh, now. Cost of injectors (and probably cups while it's open), labor (if I don't do it myself). At least I know I won't HAVE to have it towed somewhere if I don't do the labor myself.
 
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