Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum banner

21 - 40 of 71 Posts

·
Compression Ignition Addict
Joined
·
5,108 Posts
oh yeah thats right. those did not to appear to have any cracks anywhere none uner the valve seats none on the face. both were alright
Identifying cracked heads is done at a machine shop with dye penetrant testing, mag particle testing, vacuum testing, or maybe even ultrasonic testing (not common though).

In your case, you don't know why it was/is running red hot. A visual look at the heads is not sufficient to rule out cracked heads.

You really don't even know if you have an engine that is worth further expense/effort or not.

If the coolant temperature is accurate and it actually has been "red hot" and you don't have good compression - then time to move on ....... IMO anyway. This engine seems to have gone through quite a bit of abuse.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
what we tried today. put a can of ether into it (yes i know not to do it on these trucks its never been ether but it helped) it wanted to fire on the ether. still no start but does crank no codes. pulled the icp sensor and oil does shoot out from the rail. again yr 05. when i loosed the sensor it has a pssssst sound as if air was coming out of it then turned over with starter wire and after about 6 seconds oil shot out of it. still no start. would it start with the icp sensor unplugged maybe? if so then i will try and do that to determine if anything else is an issue. there is no head knock like stated before no lose of compression by the sounds of it. got a new battery charger and it pumps out 210 amps. sounds decently healthy now when cranking. am now getting oil pressure reading on the gauge. and like said there is oil coming out of the hpo rails. my next check is going to be ipr connection, cam sensor plug, crank sensor plug, maybe ficm plug but all injectors are chattering when glowplugs are warming up. all lights come on dash as per normal and glowplugs are working. appears to be no air in any of the fuel lines i hope and same goes for oil now. did more looking around oil in coolant was there but not as much as once thought. truck ran near perfect other then being in limp mode for a while. once oil was added back then at first it came out of limp mode and was able to get up the tow truck bed and into the shop where it has not moved a mm since beginning of january. truck soudns healthy now and over night batteries are on recondition since why not the new charger has that feature. getting good exhaust movement just will not catch and fire. almost ran on just the ether but didnt actually catch and fire. on just ether it maybe got up to i want to say 300 rpm give or take for a few seconds then died down after it sucked it all out.

EDIT: we had a real mechanic check it out the other day and he said there was nothing really wrong with it other then air in the rails and what not, all details were told to him and all seemed alright except for the fact of it not starting. he said he wouldnt take on this job judging by the fact of how far into the motor we went understandably but he said motor should be fine other then weak batteries hence why we got a new charger. just need help figuring out the no start issue
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #23
Identifying cracked heads is done at a machine shop with dye penetrant testing, mag particle testing, vacuum testing, or maybe even ultrasonic testing (not common though).

In your case, you don't know why it was/is running red hot. A visual look at the heads is not sufficient to rule out cracked heads.

You really don't even know if you have an engine that is worth further expense/effort or not.

If the coolant temperature is accurate and it actually has been "red hot" and you don't have good compression - then time to move on ....... IMO anyway. This engine seems to have gone through quite a bit of abuse.
it was running red hot even after sitting out side in -5C over night. as soon as the key is turned it says it even if its cold and hasnt even turned over once yet. as soon as we dropped the batteries back in and went to turn the key first thing that came up was the check engine temp. the gauge stayed down for the most part though until it hit coolant then it dropped to cold. the dash still says check temp even though if it hasnt been turned over yet or is at a freezing temperature. unplugged the sensor and the error goes away but obviously throws a code. only 2 codes are egr and coolant temp now. egr was full delete kit and has always had the 0403 and 0405 codes even 2 years ago when it ran with 0 issue. so i guess no code isnt fully right but theres no code relating to this issue
 

·
Compression Ignition Addict
Joined
·
5,108 Posts
Why wouldn't you fix the bad temperature sensor then? I mean you have posted about it being red-hot, but that is now misleading?

Hydro posted (post #13) the readings you need to take to troubleshoot a no-start. There is a link to troubleshooting a no-start in my signature (bottom of each post).

As he said - get engine data. If you are using an SCT or a similar tuner for reading codes, then you probably aren't getting all of them.


EDIT - Hydro also posted the advice below/ I didn't see where you followed that advice ....


Take the oil filter cap off and crank, lets see if oil is pushing up there -- oil pressure gauge only really reads 7psi(is not a real gauge)
wouldn't hurt to do the same for the fuel filter -- do you get any smoke at all?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,745 Posts
The PCM 'thinks' the engine is still "red hot", so it will de-rate the engine fuel
most likely if you fix the sensor, the engine will start

Been a lot of guessing in this thread because of the lack of readings from the PCM
Forscan is my goto choice for pulling codes and taking readings
the software is free, along with the license -- the OBD adapter can be low cost, compared to replacing unneeded parts

It is the goal here to give good advice and work together to solve each others problems -- everyone wants to stay out of the shop if possible
many of us are professional mechanics and enthusiasts -- and we rely on the information given by the poster to form a response

accurate and concise information works best, as that is the only input we have to work with
and the solutions given are based on that input
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
Why wouldn't you fix the bad temperature sensor then? I mean you have posted about it being red-hot, but that is now misleading?

Hydro posted (post #13) the readings you need to take to troubleshoot a no-start. There is a link to troubleshooting a no-start in my signature (bottom of each post).

As he said - get engine data. If you are using an SCT or a similar tuner for reading codes, then you probably aren't getting all of them.


EDIT - Hydro also posted the advice below/ I didn't see where you followed that advice ....


Take the oil filter cap off and crank, lets see if oil is pushing up there -- oil pressure gauge only really reads 7psi(is not a real gauge)
wouldn't hurt to do the same for the fuel filter -- do you get any smoke at all?
filter out oil does rise then go away through the bowl. we just thought the sensor error would go away on its own because who cares. even before we took it apart and the sensor was plugged in it fired up like nothing was wrong no hiccup or stumble. turn key and fired except for the 1k rpm thing. added oil fixed that issue some how and it gave it power to make it up the truck. we were thinking of a scan gauge 2 or something since might as well if it works with all vehicles i need one for my car anyways.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #27
The PCM 'thinks' the engine is still "red hot", so it will de-rate the engine fuel
most likely if you fix the sensor, the engine will start

Been a lot of guessing in this thread because of the lack of readings from the PCM
Forscan is my goto choice for pulling codes and taking readings
the software is free, along with the license -- the OBD adapter can be low cost, compared to replacing unneeded parts

It is the goal here to give good advice and work together to solve each others problems -- everyone wants to stay out of the shop if possible
many of us are professional mechanics and enthusiasts -- and we rely on the information given by the poster to form a response

accurate and concise information works best, as that is the only input we have to work with
and the solutions given are based on that input
i get that most if not all here know everything about these engines and thats why im here but im just relaying all the info i can gather. as for the red hot, before it was taken to our shop and all it gave the error and it fired up every time even with nothing unplugged. just didnt run clean for obvious reasons. for forscan, would i be able to daisy chain it to my laptop with my sct x3? like plug that into the truck then the usb into the bottom of the tuner? thats how the livelink for that tuner works but it only does data logging and it has issues with updating and its all just stupid. but if i can use that then that saves me tons of time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #28
got a snap on scanner from a buddy. read all the live data. ficm is synced, icp is reading over 1500psi, ficm has 48.5 volts, injectors are buzzing, glow plugs are firing, fuel is reaching the bowl. everything literally appears to be 100%
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,745 Posts
Smoke out the exhaust??

What is the temperature?
 

·
Compression Ignition Addict
Joined
·
5,108 Posts
got a snap on scanner from a buddy. read all the live data. ficm is synced, icp is reading over 1500psi, ficm has 48.5 volts, injectors are buzzing, glow plugs are firing, fuel is reaching the bowl. everything literally appears to be 100%
You need to look at ICP volts. Otherwise you don't know if that 1500 + psi is real or not.

That said, it seems to be more than a fuel supply issue if you can't even get it to fire with ether ....

You still don't know if the injectors are firing. Even w/ 48 volts, the FICM could be bad. You could also have a weak fuel pump, OR you may have air in the fuel, OR you may have compressed gas flowing backwards through a bad injector restricting fuel flow, OR you may even have a few bad injectors. Afterall, if the oil was as thick as you said, I can EASILY understand how they might have issues.

Maybe you need to see if the FICM is issuing a "Fuel Pulse Width" command.

You say compression is good, but how do you know?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
117 Posts
These engines are relatively simple (I work on CATs part time and can't always say the same thing). Sure sounds like a PCM (EEC) defuel based on sensor feed. Here's a checklist:


1. FICM SYNC (needs to say “yes” when cranking)
-If the FICM SYNC always says no, there is a loss of camshaft position signal or crankshaft position signal.

2. FICM L power (needs to be above 11.5 volts)
-If FICM L or V power is below 11.5, load test the batteries.

3. FICM V power (needs to be above 11.5 volts)

4. FICM M power (needs to be 45 volts or above)
-If FICM M power is significantly below 45 volts and L and V power were above 11.5, suspect a FICM module concern. The voltage would have to be quite low to create no start, 35 volts or lower may create a no start condition.

5. ICP or injection control pressure, needs to match the ICP Desired reading.
-If the ICP pressure is not matching the ICP Desired reading, and the IPR is 85%, the high pressure oil system is the cause of the no start, the high pressure system will need to be tested.

6. IPR or injection pressure regulator (should not reach and maintain 85%)

7. If all the above tests pass, yet the engine still will not start, check the fuel pressure. The fuel pressure should be 45 PSI or higher.

8. If all is good so far, then run an injector self test and see if there are any codes. If there are no codes, access the fuel injector connectors, put an inductive amp probe around each wire, one at a time at the injectors, leave the connector plugged in. Then crank the engine, if the FICM is firing the injectors, there should be a 20 amp pulse going to each injector.

9. Also amp current check the glow plugs, each glow plug should draw about 17 to 20 amps.

10. If the injectors are being pulsed properly, the fuel pressure and high pressure oil is all passing, perform a bubble test to check for compression getting into the fuel system.

11. If all is passing, but the engine still won’t start, drop the exhaust. If it still won’t start, pull the glow plugs out to check engine compression. Compression will usually range between 300 and 400 PSI.

12. If all tests have passed but the engine will not start and you have good quality diesel fuel, then the injectors will have to be flow tested or replaced to rule out injectors as the cause of the no start.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
You need to look at ICP volts. Otherwise you don't know if that 1500 + psi is real or not.

That said, it seems to be more than a fuel supply issue if you can't even get it to fire with ether ....

You still don't know if the injectors are firing. Even w/ 48 volts, the FICM could be bad. You could also have a weak fuel pump, OR you may have air in the fuel, OR you may have compressed gas flowing backwards through a bad injector restricting fuel flow, OR you may even have a few bad injectors. Afterall, if the oil was as thick as you said, I can EASILY understand how they might have issues.

Maybe you need to see if the FICM is issuing a "Fuel Pulse Width" command.

You say compression is good, but how do you know?
we had to give back the scanner we were using since it was not ours but a friends. there are no bubbles flowing back from the fuel lines into the bowl. the icp reading was .25 volts at something like 1500 psi give or take and the fuel supply is all good. dont remember the pressure reading but it was enough to to be good and safe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
These engines are relatively simple (I work on CATs part time and can't always say the same thing). Sure sounds like a PCM (EEC) defuel based on sensor feed. Here's a checklist:


1. FICM SYNC (needs to say “yes” when cranking)
-If the FICM SYNC always says no, there is a loss of camshaft position signal or crankshaft position signal.

2. FICM L power (needs to be above 11.5 volts)
-If FICM L or V power is below 11.5, load test the batteries.

3. FICM V power (needs to be above 11.5 volts)

4. FICM M power (needs to be 45 volts or above)
-If FICM M power is significantly below 45 volts and L and V power were above 11.5, suspect a FICM module concern. The voltage would have to be quite low to create no start, 35 volts or lower may create a no start condition.

5. ICP or injection control pressure, needs to match the ICP Desired reading.
-If the ICP pressure is not matching the ICP Desired reading, and the IPR is 85%, the high pressure oil system is the cause of the no start, the high pressure system will need to be tested.

6. IPR or injection pressure regulator (should not reach and maintain 85%)

7. If all the above tests pass, yet the engine still will not start, check the fuel pressure. The fuel pressure should be 45 PSI or higher.

8. If all is good so far, then run an injector self test and see if there are any codes. If there are no codes, access the fuel injector connectors, put an inductive amp probe around each wire, one at a time at the injectors, leave the connector plugged in. Then crank the engine, if the FICM is firing the injectors, there should be a 20 amp pulse going to each injector.

9. Also amp current check the glow plugs, each glow plug should draw about 17 to 20 amps.

10. If the injectors are being pulsed properly, the fuel pressure and high pressure oil is all passing, perform a bubble test to check for compression getting into the fuel system.

11. If all is passing, but the engine still won’t start, drop the exhaust. If it still won’t start, pull the glow plugs out to check engine compression. Compression will usually range between 300 and 400 PSI.

12. If all tests have passed but the engine will not start and you have good quality diesel fuel, then the injectors will have to be flow tested or replaced to rule out injectors as the cause of the no start.
did the bubble test, oil gauge on dash is reading normal which then to me means that the low pressure side is good. as for high pressure the icp is reading 1500 psi at .25 volts. could not get an ipr reading but i would assume it should be alright getting that kind of psi and climbing. got new batteries today so now we get a consistant crank and the voltage drop goes to only like 11.1 or .2. old batteries had a dead cell in one and a 300 cca drop in the other. everything checks out and we asked another friend and he said that since the coolant sensor is reading false that its possible it could be telling the truck to not fire. so a new one is coming in since we know that one is bad and that it might fix it who knows we are trying everything at this point. also when cranking ficm does read YES.
 

·
Compression Ignition Addict
Joined
·
5,108 Posts
.25 volts does not correspond to 1500 psig. The PCM is "assuming" that pressure value.

.25 volts means that the sensor is actually reporting atmospheric pressure (apprx 15 psig).

As far as the oil pressure on the dash, it will register good at 7 psig. It is an indication, but not a guarantee of good health.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,745 Posts
The ICP volts at 0.25 is zero pressure -- that is why reading voltage is also needed along with pressure readings
the pressure you see with that voltage reading is faked or inferred

The PCM is not getting a pressure reading from the ICP sensor, so it uses instead an internal reading from a software table
either the sensor is bad or the wiring is bad

Forscan on your laptop is a reliable scanner and free, except for the OBD adapter
phone or tablet 'lite' version is a minimal cost
OBDLink MX+ or the BAFX adapters are good ones that work, some of the cheap knock off will also work ...maybe

You can jump the coolant sensor connector to make the gauge swing to the limits, I would try that to verify the harness is working
 

·
Compression Ignition Addict
Joined
·
5,108 Posts
Oh, and a bad coolant sensor will NOT cause the PCM to prevent "firing" - at least not that I have ever seen or heard of.

That said, an oil sensor reading high falsely WILL prevent the glow plugs from operating. You don't seem to have an issue with the glow plugs though (according to your posts).
 

·
Compression Ignition Addict
Joined
·
5,108 Posts
I am starting to believe that you actually have ZERO high-pressure oil pressure (and probably have a FICM issue and probably have injector issues)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #39
The ICP volts at 0.25 is zero pressure -- that is why reading voltage is also needed along with pressure readings
the pressure you see with that voltage reading is faked or inferred

The PCM is not getting a pressure reading from the ICP sensor, so it uses instead an internal reading from a software table
either the sensor is bad or the wiring is bad

Forscan on your laptop is a reliable scanner and free, except for the OBD adapter
phone or tablet 'lite' version is a minimal cost
OBDLink MX+ or the BAFX adapters are good ones that work, some of the cheap knock off will also work ...maybe

You can jump the coolant sensor connector to make the gauge swing to the limits, I would try that to verify the harness is working
issue with that though is i watched the icp pressure rise as i was cranking. will check again tomorrow if possible
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
39 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
The ICP volts at 0.25 is zero pressure -- that is why reading voltage is also needed along with pressure readings
the pressure you see with that voltage reading is faked or inferred

The PCM is not getting a pressure reading from the ICP sensor, so it uses instead an internal reading from a software table
either the sensor is bad or the wiring is bad

Forscan on your laptop is a reliable scanner and free, except for the OBD adapter
phone or tablet 'lite' version is a minimal cost
OBDLink MX+ or the BAFX adapters are good ones that work, some of the cheap knock off will also work ...maybe

You can jump the coolant sensor connector to make the gauge swing to the limits, I would try that to verify the harness is working
i will attempt to check the icp again and if that is the issue then problem solved but at this time im not sure if it would be. since i cant scan and read anything with a scanner at this current moment anymore whats a way i can do it with out specialty testers and with only a volt meter. we pwn a welding shop and welding company not a mechanic shop so these parts are a little limited
 
21 - 40 of 71 Posts
Top