Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum banner
21 - 40 of 46 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Should hunt for members up there to see what happens to them.
Dang! That's a great point! I hadn't thought about that. And actually, when I lived up there, I owned an '85 F250 with the 6.9L International diesel motor in it. It too had block heaters, but of course, no DEF, no emissions of any kind, and perhaps more importantly, I lived in south Anchorage, right on the water, so it didn't get quite as cold there.

But it would be very interesting to learn from some present-day Alaska owners of Powerstrokes, just what they experience with their DEF systems in winter. I wouldn't think it could be too good, but then, who knows?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
161 Posts
I bet there’s a lot of 7.3s up there being very well maintained.

I can tell you with completely confidence the EPA doesn’t give the slightest crap in the world about what their regulations do to severe weather trucking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I bet there’s a lot of 7.3s up there being very well maintained.
Yup, I'm sure! Albeit LOUD, that was a particularly great motor! I had one of those too, in a '95 F350 crew, but here again, no emissions, so no frozen DEF issues.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Is there a dealer in Alaska you can just call? I'd think if this were a real problem there wouldn't be any EPA castrated diesels running around up there.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Discussion Starter · #25 ·
Is there a dealer in Alaska you can just call? I'd think if this were a real problem there wouldn't be any EPA castrated diesels running around up there.
Sorry. I'm not quite sure what it is that you're saying here (?), but if you're questioning whether the DEF heater is a "problem" across the Ford SuperDuty product line (i.e., F250-F550 Powerstrokes), I can assure you that it most positively is. For over ten-years its been a problem. Just Google it! Technical Bulletins, recalls, warranty claims, extended warranty claims, you name it!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Sorry. I'm not quite sure what it is that you're saying here (?), but if you're questioning whether the DEF heater is a "problem" across the Ford SuperDuty product line (i.e., F250-F550 Powerstrokes), I can assure you that it most positively is. For over ten-years its been a problem. Just Google it! Technical Bulletins, recalls, warranty claims, extended warranty claims, you name it!
I guess you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.
Sure, there are high failure rates with some trucks in all brands. Ford, GM, FCA....they all do. What I'm saying is that I think you are overreacting a bit. Call a dealer and ask what they are doing to protect the DEF pumps from freezing. If the heater was the kiss of death due to freezing DEF then there would be no diesels running north of the Mason Dixon after Thanksgiving. Your truck is damn near 6 years old. Things fail. 6 year old tires are gonna fail even if they have low miles. The only thing that is going to fail LESS often from sitting is a Dodge transmission. Lol. Maybe all the sitting fouled the DEF and hastened the failure. I don't know. My heater failed at 40k-ish. My friends failed at 170k-ish. My neighbor is in the original at over 200k (DPF is still original too).
 
  • Like
Reactions: bc_vickers

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Discussion Starter · #27 ·
I guess you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.
Sure, there are high failure rates with some trucks in all brands. Ford, GM, FCA....they all do. What I'm saying is that I think you are overreacting a bit. Call a dealer and ask what they are doing to protect the DEF pumps from freezing. If the heater was the kiss of death due to freezing DEF then there would be no diesels running north of the Mason Dixon after Thanksgiving. Your truck is damn near 6 years old. Things fail. 6 year old tires are gonna fail even if they have low miles. The only thing that is going to fail LESS often from sitting is a Dodge transmission. Lol. Maybe all the sitting fouled the DEF and hastened the failure. I don't know. My heater failed at 40k-ish. My friends failed at 170k-ish. My neighbor is in the original at over 200k (DPF is still original too).
Yeah, no, I'm not here to dispute your rightful opinion, or to argue with you partner. That's just not me. And I get your point that its a matter of numbers; numbers that have failed versus the total number out there. I can only say that Ford itself has formally acknowledged the problem, for YEARS, and that's simply not open to debate. Its public record. And its safe to say that 'for-profit' outfits like Ford don't generally step-up to accept responsibility on such things, unless the potential legal claims stand to overrun their margin. That's Business-101. And let's get real for a second. This isn't a 'moving' part that is subject to wear, like a tranny or an injector pump. It's a completely inanimate, immobile device that simply sits there, and does very, very little, much like your home thermostat. Does your thermostat burn-out every other year?? So no, this ain't Quantum Mechanics!

Now, that said, you've got a great point in suggesting that I try contacting a dealer or two, in places like Alaska, to inquire from them, but then I sorely doubt that their parts or services departments are gonna readily admit to having an extraordinary failure rate, right? I mean, they're there to sell trucks and parts. No. I'd prefer to hear from Alaska owners or others living in the far north. Is it gonna solve my problem? No. Is it gonna put me at ease regarding this new replacement? No. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, regardless of what someone may say, and as I've already said here earlier, I LOVE this truck, no doubt, but if this next heater fails at any time in the next 2-years (that's as long as Ford will warranty their own part!), then I will quickly and positively scuttle it, post-haste, and never look back! To me, it's no different than a girlfriend failing you twice. Sure. Some guys'll welcome her back, time and time again. Those types exist. But that ain't me. 😊
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,066 Posts
16 inches up ain't getting it done.

776637


For 30 years I worked in the automotive industry. It's called parts maturing. We could run years of pre-production testing, but you can't conceive of all the possibilities out there in the publics hands. You do your best humping to get things donw qith accelerated tests, and when the warranty starts to hit you adjust, sometimes right up to the last days of production. But it's all about the percentage of failure, which changes with each production improvement. Maybe DEF sitting in a tank for years in a garage ain't a good thing, 'cause 2-3k miles per year is out of normality.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bc_vickers

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Discussion Starter · #29 · (Edited)
. . . Maybe DEF sitting in a tank for years ain't a good thing . . .

. . . cuz 2-3k miles per year is out of normality.
Yup, I'll grant you the mileage thing! However, let's be clear, the DEF in this truck hasn't "sat in the tank for years." These days, that's what's called 'fake news'.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,181 Posts
Someone mentioned the pump freezing -- it should not freeze, the pump reverses during the shutdown period and puts all the DEF back into the tank -- at least the Bosch and Denso units do this, not sure who makes the Ford unit

Would be nice to see what the failure of your heater is -- I understand it is a multi element unit and will still work if one of the elements burns out (tho will throw a code)
DEF is a salt, so it will attack most metals it is in contact with -- a small stress crack in the heater could allow DEF into the elements -- or poorly designed seals where the wires go in the heater

Would be good on Ford to improve the design, but imagine the hoops the EPA would throw in the way of a design change -- If any wants to do a little research on how difficult it has been for manufacturers to comply with the regulations for tier 4b (tier 4 final) -- you will understand some of the craziness we, as Mechanics and owners, have to put up with.

DEF has a shelf life -- these guys have some good info and maybe the heater blanket you are looking for

 

·
Drunk Post Extraordinair
Joined
·
1,189 Posts
I can tell you with completely confidence the EPA doesn’t give the slightest crap in the world about what their regulations do to severe weather trucking.
Truer words have never been spoken. I'd go so far as to say it's not a bug, it's a feature.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
69 Posts
Discussion Starter · #32 ·
@Hydro,

XLNT! Thanks for the informative post, and yeah, I'll definitely look into an external heat source of some kind for the DEF tank. Something real simple might work just fine.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
161 Posts
To me, it's no different than a girlfriend failing you twice. Sure. Some guys'll welcome her back, time and time again. Those types exist. But that ain't me. 😊
IMO…
I think you have the wrong mindset and expectations about post emissions trucks man. What I keep reading from you is the underlying problem you have higher expectations than is realistic for literally any truck in the modern market for these emissions parts and parts in general that sometimes just don’t work right. FYI, your high pressure fuel pump is a poorly designed part that’s gonna screw that truck up way worse than this. A DEF heater just ain’t that bad. Selling the truck to solve this problem is just a more expensive way of not fixing anything. GM and Dodge have the exact same design and they fail too. I mean dude I deal with big rigs for work and they have issues with DEF senders, sensors, SCR all the time. Man I’m telling you I deal with almost as many after treatment related issues as I do tire changes on freaking Internationals. You could have had the coolest, most awesome, heater modification ever invented and the heater still can break. I’m personally not convinced weather was the only factor. Its extremely likely one of the things @Hydro mentioned took place and you had a heater failure that was either revealed or sped up by the weather conditions. Or weather was a complete coincidence because weirder coincidences have happened in the mechanical world. I am willing to bet that Powerstrokes up North are deleted, pre emissions, or the owner just deals with replacing a part every 5 years-ish and considers it maintenance of living in severe weather because it’s normal wear and tear. Please do report back any findings on that if you get any help hard facts, I am curious. None of the 3000 trucks in my company’s fleet have modifications. We consider it normal wear and tear.

This isn’t like your girlfriend cheating on you and after the 2nd time you kick her to the curb. This is more like she keeps forgetting to bring home the right kinda beer you asked for so you dump her after the 2nd time. It’s just not realistic expectations if your girl has bad memory ya know. My wife has real bad memory. I still married her hahaha
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
794 Posts
My wife actually did social media management for an international DEF manufacturer when DEF first came around and would have to remind everyone to gently put the DEF nozzle into their truck. If you slam the nozzle into the truck, you will hit the metal around it, and will break the not-so-rough-and-tumble pieces off into flecks, that will then go into your DEF tank. Even the smallest flake will cause you to have a corrosion issue that could cause a serious problem and a pricey flush. This was a direct quote from the DEF social media manager sitting right beside me
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
794 Posts
Where the outer nozzle and tank meet, there is a thin inner ring. When you thrust the nozzle in firmly, small metal flecks from said ring are knocked into your tank. These rings are often depleted by overzealous fillers within a few years.
776644
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,066 Posts
I'm really starting to feel like everyone is getting strung along with this guy. I'm out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bhelm and Hydro

·
Registered
Joined
·
794 Posts
i cant remmber wich manf tried to get more time on dry regem , no one could figure how to keep temps down and make motros and parts last why they droped 6.4 design and went to def thinking it was better. you are not replacing motor just def system.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,774 Posts
Yeah, no, I'm not here to dispute your rightful opinion, or to argue with you partner. That's just not me. And I get your point that its a matter of numbers; numbers that have failed versus the total number out there. I can only say that Ford itself has formally acknowledged the problem, for YEARS, and that's simply not open to debate. Its public record. And its safe to say that 'for-profit' outfits like Ford don't generally step-up to accept responsibility on such things, unless the potential legal claims stand to overrun their margin. That's Business-101. And let's get real for a second. This isn't a 'moving' part that is subject to wear, like a tranny or an injector pump. It's a completely inanimate, immobile device that simply sits there, and does very, very little, much like your home thermostat. Does your thermostat burn-out every other year?? So no, this ain't Quantum Mechanics!

Now, that said, you've got a great point in suggesting that I try contacting a dealer or two, in places like Alaska, to inquire from them, but then I sorely doubt that their parts or services departments are gonna readily admit to having an extraordinary failure rate, right? I mean, they're there to sell trucks and parts. No. I'd prefer to hear from Alaska owners or others living in the far north. Is it gonna solve my problem? No. Is it gonna put me at ease regarding this new replacement? No. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, regardless of what someone may say, and as I've already said here earlier, I LOVE this truck, no doubt, but if this next heater fails at any time in the next 2-years (that's as long as Ford will warranty their own part!), then I will quickly and positively scuttle it, post-haste, and never look back! To me, it's no different than a girlfriend failing you twice. Sure. Some guys'll welcome her back, time and time again. Those types exist. But that ain't me. 😊
Im not arguing. It's a discussion and that's what forums are for. You can have your opinion too.
What I can tell you is fact:
Resistance heaters do have moving parts. They are called electrons. The power source moves the electrons in the element. It may not be Quantum Mechanics but it is Physics.
Thermostats DO fail (I work for one of the world's largest HVAC companies).
The extended warranty applies to a production range, indicating an issue with the run has been discovered.
Businesses WILL issue a extended warranty (recall is only for safety items) on their own when they find an issue is recurring at a high rate compared to production estimates. We have and still do. A big one was when a tiny fleck of Lock-tite 272 was seizing the oil pump on million dollar machines. There was no damage, it just shut machines down. So no fear of legal action. No talk of it. Just "fix this thing" at our cost. That's all.
Pure conjecture- maybe the electron path gets damaged by old DEF, bad DEF, contaminated DEF. Who knows. Your use probably falls way outside of the intended use and testing. A 6 year old truck that spends long periods sitting is not what they were shooting for in design.
You have your mind made up. That's cool. Others may not and I'm just offering a different point of view.
 
21 - 40 of 46 Posts
Top