But not in '05?
late HPOP test device build
6
Hello Gentlemen,
I would like to build a device to test second/late generation HPOPs.
To see how they work I have started to disassemble a pump.
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Can anyone tell me how these inserts are fixed in the housing? I can't hammer them in, nor can I pull them out with an impact hammer.
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I would like to build a device to test second/late generation HPOPs.
To see how they work I have started to disassemble a pump.
Can anyone tell me how these inserts are fixed in the housing? I can't hammer them in, nor can I pull them out with an impact hammer.
41 - 56 of 56 Posts
I think Jack that this principle could also be the case with the late pump. The flat friction surface on the early pump is larger than on the late pump, but the late pump has the conical connection. Due to the conical design, the power transfer is naturally greater, so the smaller friction surface on the late pump could be sufficient.
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In the early HPOP there are 7 pump elements, the late pump has only 4 pump elements, but these are larger.
In general, the early pump has a much more complex design than the late pump. But why the early pumps fail so often I could not see. The functional principle is a million times in all kinds of pumps in use .
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In general, the early pump has a much more complex design than the late pump. But why the early pumps fail so often I could not see. The functional principle is a million times in all kinds of pumps in use .
Thanks for disassembling one, Hartwig. I've not gathered ones to take apart.
I tried to enlarge the valve plate images—it appears kind of another instance where good oil is imperative.
Hydro, that valve plate looks to be keyed. Can they still move, or does the key shear off? Everything there looks like many axial piston pumps. I know I've seen kits for rebuilding them, but I have no experience with how easy it is to rebuild one successfully. Obviously, we have a rebuilding issue in the aftermarket.
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My understanding is there are two and maybe three different designs for these with our engines. The ones with the wear-resistant hard plate were referred to me as the "International pump", while those without were referred to as the "Ford" pump. Ford opts for cheaper, although that information is from only one source.
Mine was identified as the "International" version with the wear-resistant plate. Notice the design of the base.
Images of mine.
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This is a pump that was designated as the "Ford" pump. A different base mount.
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From that same person, again, the International pump.
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There is another variation I've found, which may be an aftermarket part change or more of a tell for another version.
The rear sealing plates can be dished or flat. As shown above, my rebuild pump called "International" with a wear-resistant plate is dished.
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Exceeded image allowance, flat plate in next post.
I tried to enlarge the valve plate images—it appears kind of another instance where good oil is imperative.
Hydro, that valve plate looks to be keyed. Can they still move, or does the key shear off? Everything there looks like many axial piston pumps. I know I've seen kits for rebuilding them, but I have no experience with how easy it is to rebuild one successfully. Obviously, we have a rebuilding issue in the aftermarket.
My understanding is there are two and maybe three different designs for these with our engines. The ones with the wear-resistant hard plate were referred to me as the "International pump", while those without were referred to as the "Ford" pump. Ford opts for cheaper, although that information is from only one source.
Mine was identified as the "International" version with the wear-resistant plate. Notice the design of the base.
Images of mine.
This is a pump that was designated as the "Ford" pump. A different base mount.
From that same person, again, the International pump.
There is another variation I've found, which may be an aftermarket part change or more of a tell for another version.
The rear sealing plates can be dished or flat. As shown above, my rebuild pump called "International" with a wear-resistant plate is dished.
Exceeded image allowance, flat plate in next post.
From what I've gathered, it seems like the HPOP reman supplier to Ford and International had been International Fuel Systems in Indiana, which became a division of Remy. It was then purchased by Caterpillar in 2007 at the same time CAT purchased Franklin Power Products, the company Ford and International used to reman the 6.0s. This was where my engine was rebuilt.
Anyway, I haven't substantiated the information of different designs or if the pumps were designated for International and Ford production. The VT365 shares many components but, at the same time, has its own designed parts. It's possible Ford targeted a lower mileage life for their chassis and, therefore, would take an option for parts less robust to save money. While International, for its chassis, would opt for longer life. Just speculation.
@TooManyToys Not the valve plate, it is keyed as you mention -- the problem is the "plug" which contains the swash plate, that is the part that is not keyed, in some / most of these pumps
Maybe that is not the best description, so here goes -- the part that contains the swash plate and rear bearing, has to be indexed to the valve plate, for the pump to work properly
this "plug" is just a press fit in the pumps I have seen -- A very poor design -- A locating pin or protrusion to lock that part would have been good
Reference Hartwig's post, the first picture -- the part the pistons are sitting in
www.powerstroke.org
Maybe that is not the best description, so here goes -- the part that contains the swash plate and rear bearing, has to be indexed to the valve plate, for the pump to work properly
this "plug" is just a press fit in the pumps I have seen -- A very poor design -- A locating pin or protrusion to lock that part would have been good
Reference Hartwig's post, the first picture -- the part the pistons are sitting in
late HPOP test device build
Hello Gentlemen, I would like to build a device to test second/late generation HPOPs. To see how they work I have started to disassemble a pump. Can anyone tell me how these inserts are fixed in the housing? I can't hammer them in, nor can I pull them out with an impact hammer.
www.powerstroke.org
This was part of the conclusion from the Machinest's WorkShop magazine and, from my interpretation, the description given by FordDoctor ("a light press fit is intended to hold the swash plate in place").I am thinking that many of the "bad" pumps have suffered from the swashplate holder rotating in the bore -- the location affects the timing of the pistons and valve plate > then the pumps ability to move oil. Just a simple roll pin to locate that part would be a good fix
The brass valve plate in the pictures is junk -- those scratches connecting the valve ports are a killer in this style of pump -- the higher the pressure the pump is making, the worse the lifting affect is on the plates -- this causes the whole cylinder block to lift from the valve plate and spew oil from between the cylinder and valve plate , rather than deliver out the pressure port -- when the pressure called for is reduced, or the system is shut down, than the plates will come back into contact -- and pumping will seen normal again, until high pressure is reached -- the no or low pressure again as the plates separate
I have ran into this scenario many times with the machines I work on -- a pump will flow almost to spec at lower pressures but as the max is reached the flow drops off all of a sudden -- testing with gauges and a flow meter
Not the valve plate, it is keyed as you mention -- the problem is the "plug" which contains the swash plate, that is the part that is not keyed, in some / most of these pumps
Maybe that is not the best description, so here goes -- the part that contains the swash plate and rear bearing, has to be indexed to the valve plate, for the pump to work properly
this "plug" is just a press fit in the pumps I have seen -- A very poor design -- A locating pin or protrusion to lock that part would have been good
Reference Hartwig's post, the first picture -- the part the pistons are sitting in
late HPOP test device build
Hello Gentlemen, I would like to build a device to test second/late generation HPOPs. To see how they work I have started to disassemble a pump. Can anyone tell me how these inserts are fixed in the housing? I can't hammer them in, nor can I pull them out with an impact hammer.
A lot more of an issue than simple priming procedures (not that priming the pump isn't a good idea).
EDIT - for the record (from a thread 2 years ago):
"I am not saying that properly priming the OEM pump wouldn't increase its reliability. No doubt it would. Seen that in industry MANY times. To what extent it would help, who knows."
41 - 56 of 56 Posts
