Intermittent long starts 2006 f250, 6.0

bismic said:

How did you replace the fuel pump relay?

The best value in a scan tool is a smartphone app. Download ForScan Lite or Torque Pro. Get the adapter (2 day delivery from Amazon) and you have a scan tool that pulls codes thoroughly.

Tell us what device you want to use (Android, i-phone, tablet or Windows laptop) and we can give you the details on what to buy.

If you own a 6,0L, you need a good scan tool.

The '06 ICP's are very reliable, but they can fail. That said, a bad ICP can simply be unplugged and the truck should start and run just fine.

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I was able to diagnose a fuel pump relay by using a test light and verifying I was getting power into the fuse in front of the fuse box on the fuel pump fuse, and that I was not getting power out to the inertia sensor switch. I was able to hotwire a wire from the 12 volt positive on my battery to the inertia switch going downstream to the pump and getting the truck to run perfectly fine. That let me know that power was getting to the relay but it was not actually activating and letting the power continue on to the next step which is the inertia switch.



I was able to send out the fuse box to a fuse box repair company that swapped out the fuel pump relay since it is not serviceable without desoldering. They verified the really was blown and after getting the fuse box back from them and putting it back into the truck and ran perfectly fine. I'm just trying to iron out this long start issue.



I have an Android but through my work I have access to a Windows laptop that I can do whatever I want on. I think Android might be better simply because it'll always be with me. Unless the windows laptop is that much better. Which of those two apps is better for the Android?



Does this sound like an ICP error to you? Or just a leak? Or does it need to be actually scanned to know anything. If it has to be scanned what exactly am I looking forward to help me narrow this issue down?

bismic said:

Also:

Download FORScan

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Thank you for the help, I will try to get more photos of the engine bay later today. I only have one decent photo but it doesn't show much. I'll still post it anyways but I'll try to get more photos later when I get back to my shop today. I'm out at site meetings today. I replaced the IPR valve with the only one they had at AutoZone. Unfortunately it was not a motor sport one. It was the only one they had. If the windows laptop one is more capable I'm thinking of getting that one then with the USB adapter. I will look it up in about an hour when I have a little bit more time. Please know the air intake is disassembled in a degasser is removed in the photos. How would I know what to look for when I get to scan thing running? Will there be specific signs that tell me what the problem is? For example how would I know if it is the valve or the ICP?

bismic said:

Looks like an OEM oil filterr cap - so that is good.

The wiring over the turbo SHOULD run in a plastic tray to keep it away from the hot turbo. Yours looks like it is getting too close, IMO anyway.

Looks like somebody has run the alternator output wire to the drivers side battery, so no telling what else has been done to it! Doesn't look like enough wire size to me. Hard to tell how the passenger battery gets charged.

ForScan is fantastic at pulling codes. Seeing if something is there is the first step.

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Not sure if this helps but AutoZone scanner only pulls up and code and EGR valve code (EGR has been deleted by a previous owner but the valve is still there dummied, maybe not turned to remove code)

This truck has had it's share of... Electrical modifications. Do you think this issue is a serious issue or can I take my time diagnosing and repairing it? I want to do it sooner than later but I also want to get the right diagnosis and take my time to avoid spending 1k on following ghosts.

I would like to perform an air leak test. I think I will order the ICP adapter and automotive stethoscope (thanks auto correct).

Should I swap the positive wire to the passenger side and increase the gauge? I am an AC electrician but I'm still new to DC. Is there a specific gauge I should put or chart I can follow for DC wiring sizing. Insulation or can I just use THHN/XHHW? I've been so busy fixing mechanical things or important electrical issues like the pump relay on this truck I haven't had much time to focus on the smaller items that aren't causing direct issues (that I know of). I will definitely post more photos probably around 4-5est to this thread.

First - I hate aftermarket sensors and actuators. Often times they just make you think that it can't be them (because they are new), and often times they fail quickly, or are even bad out of the box!

I like the IPR fitting as the first step for an air test. With it, you do not have to command the IPR valve closed. Many places have been sold out of that fitting, so I have gone to the one sold by SWAG Diesel:


You need to look at the ICP pressure, ICP sensor voltage output, the desired ICP pressure, and the IPR % duty cycle (commanded value), to decide if you have an issue in the high pressure system. I would do that before doing an air test, but nothing wrong with doing an air test - just the effort involved.

The parts stores do not have the best diagnostic software tools. They usually do not do a complete scan. Too often they miss things.

I am not the best one to recommend wire size. @TooManyToys would get into those details. You could search and find a TON of information on the subject (in this forum AND on the internet).

I have a 230A alternator, so my choices are not what you need stock ...... and the price of copper keeps going up. My wiring to the batteries and between the batteries is 2/0. There are also ground wire updates that help keep things happy (mainly processors). Also, I have two additional batteries under the passenger frame rail for power out in the "sticks", and for emergency power, so my system isn't one to compare to.

IMO, you are better off with the charge wire to the passenger battery (shorter run), and then making sure the batteries have the proper size wire between them, and to their ground points!

2AWG is probably good enough for a 90A alternator and a short run to the passenger battery. Also, the starter is powered off of the passenger battery, so you need proper power there! Then you need something adequate for proper charging of the driver's side battery (and to ensure glow plug operation and processor power).

My compliments to you on resolving your fuel pump relay. That relay is the ONLY thing that has ever stranded me, but I did have most of the parts purchased for the installation of a separate (external) relay, so the issue wasn't a big one for me. Unfortunately it can be a BIG issue for most owners, especially if it happens on a long trip.

bismic said:

First - I hate aftermarket sensors and actuators. Often times they just make you think that it can't be them (because they are new), and often times they fail quickly, or are even bad out of the box!

I like the IPR fitting as the first step for an air test. With it, you do not have to command the IPR valve closed. Many places have been sold out of that fitting, so I have gone to the one sold by SWAG Diesel:

SWAG PERFORMANCE 6.0L IPR AIR TEST TOOL FITTING

SWAG PERFORMANCE FORD 6.0L POWERSTROKE DIESEL IPR AIR TEST TOOL FITTING

swagperformanceparts.com

You need to look at the ICP pressure, ICP sensor voltage output, the desired ICP pressure, and the IPR % duty cycle (commanded value), to decide if you have an issue in the high pressure system. I would do that before doing an air test, but nothing wrong with doing an air test - just the effort involved.

The parts stores do not have the best diagnostic software tools. They usually do not do a complete scan. Too often they miss things.

I am not the best one to recommend wire size. @TooManyToys would get into those details. You could search and find a TON of information on the subject (in this forum AND on the internet).

I have a 230A alternator, so my choices are not what you need stock ...... and the price of copper keeps going up. My wiring to the batteries and between the batteries is 2/0. There are also ground updates that help keep things happy (mainly processors). Also, I have two additional batteries under the passenger frame rail for power out in the "sticks", and for emergency power, so my system isn't one to compare to.

IMO, you are better off with the charge wire to the passenger battery (shorter run), and then making sure the batteries have the proper size wire between them, and to their ground points!

2AWG is probably good enough for a 90A alternator and a short run to the passenger battery. Also, the starter is powered off of the passenger battery, so you need proper power there! Then you need something adequate for proper charging of the driver's side battery (and to ensure glow plug operation and processor power).

My compliments to you on resolving your fuel pump relay. That relay is the ONLY thing that has stranded me, but I did have most of the parts purchased for the installation of a separate (external) relay, so the issue wasn't a big one for me. Unfortunately it can be a BIG issue for most owners, especially if it happens on a long trip.

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Thanks a ton for the help!!

I will do some more research on this forum about the wiring! I want to clear up the issues with this truck so bad, I just like being very thorough so sometimes it takes me a while to make sure I'm doing the right thing. The IPR sensor was a ford IPR sensor (decently old) and it has the same issues. I only replaced it as the first solution people in my area gave me about the no start was replacing the IPR. Being new to diesels and 6.0s a month ago, I went ahead and tried it. I turned to forums and my own electrical tests from there on and took it slow as I'm still learning about this vehicle. Saved way more money compared to what other people were telling me to do. So thank you!!

I will probably just put 2/0 wiring for upgrades sake. I intend on putting an inverter in eventually, and with that a better alternator.

I believe ICP pressure to fire the injectors is 500psi is what I was reading somewhere. And I think 85% IPR is fully closed and 15% is fully open. I'm pretty sure you just have to make sure IPR doesn't fully close and ICP doesn't take too long to build to 500. If it takes too long that could be a sign of an oil leak?

I forgot to mention... There is a small oil leak in the truck SOMEWHERE. It drops somewhere underneath the engine. If it's idling it's probably one drip an hour?

Still looking into the scanning equipment. Considering android a little more now, these site visits are a little more involved than they were supposed to be.

The alternator wiring is going to depend on the output of the alternator. You might want to take a picture of the label, and maybe we can figure out what it is. The alternator is also missing a mounting bolt unless you are in the process of removing it.

Having the charging cable going over to the driver's side is something many do, but the reason is why? You are talking about long starts, and it's possible someone had an issue with the factory alternator charging cable. If so, there is the potential of them screwing with that, which is also the power cable for the glow plugs. Since your code reading ability right now is not great, there may be issues there. Or not.

Your main harness wire taping looks a little tattered, which always raises the possibility of harness shorts, which can screw with you, too.

Take some pictures of all the battery-to-battery wiring, especially at the terminals. You always want to use vehicle or boating grade wires; A/C grade or welding ain't going to work.

At some point, you will want to change the oil feed tube to the turbo. That's the flexible one that was discontinued due to the possibility of them delaminating on the inside.

Besides the mess, an external oil leak isn't going to be an issue. The ONLY time it can be an issue for starting is when you have a cam or crank sensor leaking oil into the connector, causing the insulation to fail, and a short in the sensor/connector/wiring then develops. Then you probably will not get SYNC!

At first, you want to see 500 psi minimum develop in the ICP pressure - minimum required for a start. That said, you also want to see .82-.85 minimum volts output from the ICP sensor. The PCM is programmed to ASSUME (or infer if you will) a high enough ICP pressure to enable a start, if it THINKS that there is an issue with an ICP sensor. The sensor output voltage will tell the TRUE story. That can cause confusion for people. Some people have difficulty understanding how that is possible, but it is a common occurrence, and just needs to be understood when troubleshooting.

If you are getting the proper ICP sensor voltage output, it should start (unless the problem lies elsewhere). If you do get a start with the proper ICP sensor output, then you need to look at the commanded IPR percentage. If it is higher than it should be, then that indicates a potential leak. If you have a leak in the high pressure oil system (leak is internal to the engine), then it needs to be fixed - even if a start is achieved.

TooManyToys said:

The alternator wiring is going to depend on the output of the alternator. You might want to take a picture of the label, and maybe we can figure out what it is. The alternator is also missing a mounting bolt unless you are in the process of removing it.

Having the charging cable going over to the driver's side is something many do, but the reason is why? You are talking about long starts, and it's possible someone had an issue with the factory alternator charging cable. If so, there is the potential of them screwing with that, which is also the power cable for the glow plugs. Since your code reading ability right now is not great, there may be issues there. Or not.

Your main harness wire taping looks a little tattered, which always raises the possibility of harness shorts, which can screw with you, too.

Take some pictures of all the battery-to-battery wiring, especially at the terminals. You always want to use vehicle or boating grade wires; A/C grade or welding ain't going to work.

At some point, you will want to change the oil feed tube to the turbo. That's the flexible one that was discontinued due to the possibility of them delaminating on the inside.

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Thank you for the reply.

The alternator has a bolt broke off inside of the actual threads of where it mounts to... Some genius probably snapped it with a impact. I straightened it out since this photo and tightened it so that it doesn't budge... I'm not sure what my solution is going to be on this issue... Not yet at least.

Now that you say it I think I remember the battery end of the alternator cable being in not great shape... Like kindve taped into before the terminal if I can remember. Or maybe it was the one that was a bit shredded. I've been meaning to fix it but in my worry I think I've forgot about it. They wires their own amplifier and in turn made the whole setup very... Weird. It also has those clamp down terminals for the positive side of the battery. I can post a picture that has an EXTREMELY blurry look at the driver's side battery. More pictures will come when I get back to my truck at 4-5pm est.

Heard on the automotive wires and the drain tube!

I wonder if this could be some kind of leak between dummy plugs and stand pipes and sct fittings, maybe even nipple cups and injector seals? It just seems electrical the way it's only sometimes an issue. But it's usually never SUPER fast starting either.

Thanks so much for the help guys!!

The ICP sensor is fed reference voltage (5 volts). A short to the signal wire can cause the PCM to see a full 5 volts on that signal circuit - and that equates to 4000 psi or so.

One thing to know about the IPR valve is that it is a DUMP valve. When it is opened, it will dump oil (bleed off pressure) to the crankcase. When it is closed, it will allow the full pump pressure to the high pressure oil system. It is a duty-cycled valve, so the commanded value is actually only what is needed for developing the needed pressure. We have no way of knowing what the actual valve position is (because it may be sticking or plugged up).

While I have heard of people seeing higher than 85% commanded IPR duty cycle, I have not personally seen it. Not sure that it matters. What you want to see is a commanded IPR duty cycle that is normal for a leak free high pressure oil system. Those standard values have been posted many times.

In starting, the IPR % duty cycle should not need to be over 30% for the minimum pressure to be developed.

I have operating values also, if/when you need them.