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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,

As soon as my truck is off warranty (should be around 130,000 km) I will be pulling the cab off myself to remove the entire EGR system, DPF system, add an airdog and mini max tuner (stock power with EGR and DPF delete).

My question is, while I have the cab off, I can buy a brand new HPFP for under $1100, that seems like cheap insurance to me. I am viewing the HPFP as like a timing belt on a small car, not worth the risk of waiting for it to fail.

When do you guys think would be a good time to change out the HPFP and or the injectors on this engine?

Do you believe the injectors pose a risk to let them fail before replacement? i.e. hydraulic lock, scorching etc.?

Thanks for your input!
 

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Just out of curiousity how come you are planning to pull the cab for the egr and dpf delete?
 

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Are you pulling the cab to remove these things only? If so, I don't think it's necessary. I would put some headstuds in while you're there though.

Isn't there a system to combine with the AirDog to replace the fuel pump system altogether? Or maybe with FASS.

There's a point where proactive maintenance can introduce more problems or unnecessary expenses.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Obviously not for the DPF, but the EGR delete kit I want (RDP??) specifies cab off, I will need to weld stuff to my existing piping. There is a pre welded cab on kit but I will have a 2 post hoist in my home shop by then....

Pulling the cab seems like it isnt a really big deal to me, lets you do the job right, have a look around. I may also want to do my down (?) pipe as well, not sure if there is a big incentive to do that or not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Are headstuds necessary on these trucks if I just run stock power? I didn't think they were?

You can remove the HFCM (low pressure pump and filter) if you want to with an air dog, might just leave it for now though.

Oh, and I don't think the HPFP is unjustified for pre mature replacement. I'm going to say 90% of the $12,000 to $20,000 repair stories on here are HPFP failures.....

If you change it out early, $1,100 (pump only). If you wait till it blows $6,000 (pump and all injectors) to $20,000 (pump, all injectors and short block) if you do the work yourself.
 

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There is no guarantee that the new pump won't fail in short order though. That's the problem. I'm not saying that what you're doing is crazy; it's just not something I would do just to do. If you're going through all the trouble to replace the HPFP, I'd probably look into replacing it with a [higher quality] aftermarket set up and not the OEM again.

That seems like a lot to delete an EGR. I think the current kits out there are adequate especially with a wastegate added.

Headstuds are not necessary, but you have to pull the cab to put them on. If you already have the cab off, you might as well upgrade them. I mean, you're doing all this other stuff to bulletproof your engine. This is just one more weak link eliminated.

You can swap downpipes now with the cab on. You just have to cut the stocker.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Aftermarket or higher quality HPFP ???

As far as I know there is no such thing. There is a dragon fire pump but that is just a stock pump modified for higher flow for ++ injectors.
 

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If you replace the fuel pump you also have to replace the lines since they are one time use only and all the associated hardware. Check with an online parts dealer like sunrise to price parts. It might be in your budget.
 

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EGR delete can be done cab on. A wastegate is not needed if you are going to run stock power. Even running the truck tuned, you would be safe in most of the normal DD files. Studs can also be done cab on. There is a write up on powerstrokearmy I believe. I have it saved somewhere. I see you logic in preventative maintenance/replacement, but as with replacing anything before it fails, it could open up pandoras box if the replacement pump fails right away.
 

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I personal think it's a waste of 1100 bucks but hey it's your money. 130,000km is really not a lot of miles on that pump and like somone said the new one could fail real quick anyways. About the waste gate you definitely don't need it. Headstuds I'd wait till they fail, they might not ever. If you are pulling the cab forsure then I would spend the money on that and do headstuds now
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Ok guys, I am starting to see a trend.

The one thing you guys keep mentioning is a fear that the HPFP could fail after replacement, can't say I have seen or heard of one single instance of that occuring. And yes I am aware that all the lines need to be replaced if they are loosened.

Maybe I will look at getting a cab on EGR removal kit and not yanking the cab until later.

I thought the proactive approach would have appealed to more people on here, considering the damage that usually results when it fails. It is the only component I do not trust on this vehicle.

Might PM BigAngryHillbilly and see what his thoughts are, I was hoping he would have seen this thread.
 

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I thought there were some alternatives besides the DragonFire for pumps. It's not something I was really looking at so I was just throwing that out there.

The reason I suggested headstuds is because he was planning on removing the cab. No better time to do it if he plans on adding a tuner. You never know when you'll get the urge to push a 300+ tune.

The one thing you guys keep mentioning is a fear that the HPFP could fail after replacement, can't say I have seen or heard of one single instance of that occuring... I thought the proactive approach would have appealed to more people on here, considering the damage that usually results when it fails. It is the only component I do not trust on this vehicle.
Failure rates on components like this are hard for us to judge because we don't have the tests that they run on them or the history. In engineering school, we can judge this in a simplified manner for a good number of components using a bathtub curve.



Changing a higher risk component after it has passed the initial early failure period, in my opinion, is folly. You are actually introducing a new component with a higher possible failure rate than the previous unit which is now in its intrinsic failure period. At the end of the usable lifespan, the failure rates do begin to go up again, but I don't think we have enough history of full life HPFPs to properly quantify this yet.

This is all my personal opinion of course and it's your money. I just think there are better ways to spend it.

My first way to do that would be something like an Airdog or FASS. Then better water separation (if possible). And the easiest is by keeping your fuel lubed properly since the tolerances are so tight on these pumps that even the hint of water or "dry" fuel could spell disaster for them.
 

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I would say more would appeal to the idea if there were more failures. But the failures are few and far between on the forum, let alone in the entire nation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Changing a higher risk component after it has passed the initial early failure period, in my opinion, is folly. You are actually introducing a new component with a higher possible failure rate than the previous unit which is now in its intrinsic failure period. At the end of the usable lifespan, the failure rates do begin to go up again, but I don't think we have enough history of full life HPFPs to properly quantify this yet.

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Doss,

I am an Aircraft Engineer, specializing in commercial turbine powered helicopters. The general public is lucky we don't agree with this!

Anyways, I agree about the other things you are saying, and will re evaluate how I want to approach this. I agree that even if I did want to change it early 130,000 km is a little too quick. And if I did remove the cab for that, headstuds make sense too.

Thank you for your input, it is nice to see other peoples perspectives!
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I would say more would appeal to the idea if there were more failures. But the failures are few and far between on the forum, let alone in the entire nation.
I suppose you are right, compared to all of the 6.4's running around out there. Just seems like the HPFP is the main horror story on here, but people never start a thread saying "I have 200,000 miles, no issues".
 

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Doss,

I am an Aircraft Engineer, specializing in commercial turbine powered helicopters. The general public is lucky we don't agree with this!

Anyways, I agree about the other things you are saying, and will re evaluate how I want to approach this. I agree that even if I did want to change it early 130,000 km is a little too quick. And if I did remove the cab for that, headstuds make sense too.

Thank you for your input, it is nice to see other peoples perspectives!



:lol:


I personally thank you for not agreeing with this on stuff that flies over my head!!!

On a truck, different story as I agree with, if it aint broke dont touch it!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
:lol:


I personally thank you for not agreeing with this on stuff that flies over my head!!!

On a truck, different story as I agree with, if it aint broke dont touch it!
Haha, you are welcome!

Just pulling to the side of the road in the event of a te*****al issue is not an option in our world.

Of course I was not suggesting that a truck is worthy of the same preventitive maintenance as a helicopter, but it should receive some!

You would spend the $1,100 changing the timing belt on a VW rabbit wouldn't you!?!?! (*assuming a VW rabbit has a timing belt, lol)

There
 

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Oh, no doubt we're going to disagree on that if you're an aircraft guy. LOL Your risk (to life and property) is way higher on an aircraft component failing than on a truck fuel pump. I'm talking simple components and the rough history of how this powertrain was developed. I think Ford had very little time to fully evaluate what Navistar was building for them. That is just a general curve for component failure (which I'm sure you realize that). And, it's just my opinion.

Just seems like the HPFP is the main horror story on here, but people never start a thread saying "I have 200,000 miles, no issues".
I think it's because you're on the internet. The loudest voice is always the one of complaint. No one really even bothers to post if they haven't had an issue. I mean, you don't see anyone on here bragging about another successful oil change interval or another great tank of diesel do you? Even if you search on the internet for problems with the HPFP, you're still pretty limited on the results.

I work really closely with a Ford dealer down here with 4 diesel techs on staff. The main issue they see is bad fuel and EGRs (and some DPFs and coolant-related). We discussed warranties for a while and the service manager recommended deletes instead of warranty (off the record of course) for me personally and my set of circumstances.

I'm wondering if there is a way to swap to the MaxxForce 7 type components (don't know if they support the HP we like to push) to increase reliability on the fuel side. Then again, I don't think it's such a big concern that anyone is willing to try it.


And, on your Rabbit joke, I owned an Audi and maintenance on it sucked too. The forums were full of horror stories. So much so that I was eventually dulled to the whole deal of super proactive preventative maintenance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Completely agree, And I just read your thread on warranty vs. delete.

I am almost thinking of doing the DPF and EGR delete before my original warranty is up as well!

I doubt my rotating assembly is going to fail any time soon and if the HPFP did fail it would likely be from a cause that would not be covered under warranty. Definitely food for thought.....
 
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