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Hey guys, I recently had Ford do head gaskets and studs on my 06 because they already had the cab off and motor removed to fix an oil leak under warranty. They charged me 12 hrs of labor citing that it took that long! I haven't done that kind of work on this engine but I am having a hard time believing I wasn't screwed! Any master techs that can chime in?:dunno:
 

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Thats pretty accurate. It takes a full day or a day and a half to replace head gaskets and studs. You have to disassemble a lot of stuff to get to the head gaskets.
 

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If the cab is already off there is no reason for that to take 12 hours. If that was total labor that is one thing but that 12 hrs for just the head gaskets seems a bit out of line to me.
 

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If the cab is already off there is no reason for that to take 12 hours. If that was total labor that is one thing but that 12 hrs for just the head gaskets seems a bit out of line to me.
That seems to make sence.. I bet they just go by book time no matter the condition of the vehicle.. I would guess ford made out good on this repair job.
 

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They are going to charge you for atleast 10hrs of labor. Oil cooler and egr cooler is 10hrs of labor so do the math.
Those are done with the cab on. If the cab is off it doesn't take 10 hours to replace the oil and egr coolers. Once the cab is off and everything is readily accessible teardown shouldn't take more than 2 hrs. max. It'll take a bit more going back together having to torque stuff and cleaning up the gasket surfaces. When the cab is off if a mechanic that knows what he is doing can't do that in less than 8 hrs. something is wrong.
 

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Labor for oil cooler and egr cooler replacement is around 1500 bucks. An average dealer charges you atleast 80 bucks an hour. I use to work at mack haik ford diesel shop. The 12 hr quote is correct. Call a dealer and ask em
 

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He already got charged for the time to remove the cab from the frame.

If you're getting charged 12 hours on doing headgaskets and studs then you are getting double charged for removing the cab.
 

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I was charged an additional 2hrs labor just for doing ARP's when mine was getting warranty head gaskets

but 12 lol thats painful at $120 or at least thats our rate for Ford in AZ
 

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To james.oco200, I will assume that the oil leak repair in question was to replace the bedplate seal, since you mention the cab was lifted and the engine removed for this repair (it is also the only oil leak repair that comes to my mind, requiring disassembly to that extent). For what it's worth, to replace EGR/oil coolers AND head gaskets under WARRANTY time, pays 25 flate rate labour hours. Again, that is WARRANTY time, not retail. Typically, when quoting a RETAIL repair (meaning a the vehicle's warranty has expired), most places will quote labour hours that are between 30 to 40 % more than what the WARRANTY time pays.

Off topic, to replace a bedplate seal requires engine removal, and mounting it on a stand to be turned upside down. This process also involves removing the front and rear covers of the engine, in order to enable removal of the bedplate itself. It DOES NOT require removal of cylinder heads.

Since you REQUESTED the servicing tech to install head studs, this repair now necessitated removal of the cylinder heads (along with the injectors and all associated valvetrain parts), and then the cleaning of gasket surfaces necessary to prepare for re-installation, you've now added to the repair he was doing. 12 hours of labour is about HALF of the 25 labour hours he would've been paid if he were doing just the head gaskets and coolers under the TSB. That's right, HALF of the WARRANTY time, since it was already apart about half way. That said, I think it was pretty fair.

To the guys comments that "any mechanic" should be able to tear it apart in 2 hours and re-assemble for just a little more than that, I can only ask what kind of a "hack" would you rather have wrenching on your ride? Even if it didn't take the actual time charged, this is what flat rate is all about. How long it actually takes is dependent soley on the servicing tech. If a job PAYS 4 hours, but takes actually 1 hour or 7 hours, that is what the tech gets paid (and what the customer is charged) 4 hours. For those who feel it unfair that they paid labour hour charges greater than the actual time the job took, look at it this way. You're not paying for the actual time the job took to carry out. You're paying for the time it took for the tech to acquire the experience/knowledge to be able to carry out the job in less time than the labour time you paid.
 

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m-chan68 is dead on accurate. My Oasis report showed 26.0 hours billed under warranty to do head gaskets. My rules of thumb has always been that customer pay is usually 1.5 times what warranty pays. As far as adding head gaskets while your engine was already out, think of how scattered out your engine was. For your sake I hope the tech brought his "A" game the week your truck was there.
 

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To james.oco200, I will assume that the oil leak repair in question was to replace the bedplate seal, since you mention the cab was lifted and the engine removed for this repair (it is also the only oil leak repair that comes to my mind, requiring disassembly to that extent). For what it's worth, to replace EGR/oil coolers AND head gaskets under WARRANTY time, pays 25 flate rate labour hours. Again, that is WARRANTY time, not retail. Typically, when quoting a RETAIL repair (meaning a the vehicle's warranty has expired), most places will quote labour hours that are between 30 to 40 % more than what the WARRANTY time pays.

Off topic, to replace a bedplate seal requires engine removal, and mounting it on a stand to be turned upside down. This process also involves removing the front and rear covers of the engine, in order to enable removal of the bedplate itself. It DOES NOT require removal of cylinder heads.

Since you REQUESTED the servicing tech to install head studs, this repair now necessitated removal of the cylinder heads (along with the injectors and all associated valvetrain parts), and then the cleaning of gasket surfaces necessary to prepare for re-installation, you've now added to the repair he was doing. 12 hours of labour is about HALF of the 25 labour hours he would've been paid if he were doing just the head gaskets and coolers under the TSB. That's right, HALF of the WARRANTY time, since it was already apart about half way. That said, I think it was pretty fair.

To the guys comments that "any mechanic" should be able to tear it apart in 2 hours and re-assemble for just a little more than that, I can only ask what kind of a "hack" would you rather have wrenching on your ride? Even if it didn't take the actual time charged, this is what flat rate is all about. How long it actually takes is dependent soley on the servicing tech. If a job PAYS 4 hours, but takes actually 1 hour or 7 hours, that is what the tech gets paid (and what the customer is charged) 4 hours. For those who feel it unfair that they paid labour hour charges greater than the actual time the job took, look at it this way. You're not paying for the actual time the job took to carry out. You're paying for the time it took for the tech to acquire the experience/knowledge to be able to carry out the job in less time than the labour time you paid.
OK you have already given that the motor is out and the engine is mounted on an engine stand with the front and rear covers off to facilitate the bedplate gasket replacement. Are you going to honestly tell me that you can't roll that engine over and have the heads sitting on a bench in 2 hours from there. Give me a frigggin break. I could do it in an hour with hand tools and no air ratchets. The injectors don't have to come out if you are doing a head gasket job like most dealers do and not sending the heads out to a machine shop to be gone over. Check deck for warping with a straight edge, clean and prep surfaces, lay on head gaskets, heads, and bolt them down. reinstall pushrods and rockers, standpipe and put the valve covers back on. Engine still on the engine stand. If you can't do that in a day (8hrs.) with your lunch and coffee breaks, etc. without it being a hack job you shouldn't be turning wrenches for a living.

25 warranty hrs. is a truck come through the door and needs head gaskets. Ready, set, go. :doh:
 

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OK you have already given that the motor is out and the engine is mounted on an engine stand with the front and rear covers off to facilitate the bedplate gasket replacement. Are you going to honestly tell me that you can't roll that engine over and have the heads sitting on a bench in 2 hours from there.
Yes, to do the job PROPERLY requires engine removal, mounted on the proper engine stand and yes, front and rear covers removed. However, with the lower half of the engine block removed (a. k. a. the bedplate) and the engine turned upside down, what is supporting the crank other than gravity? That's right, so now the cylinder head R & R will have to wait either BEFORE or AFTER the bedplate seal replace which only adds more time to the process. As far as how much time, is dependent on how the servicing tech chooses to do this job.
Give me a frigggin break. I could do it in an hour with hand tools and no air ratchets. The injectors don't have to come out if you are doing a head gasket job like most dealers do and not sending the heads out to a machine shop to be gone over.
Really? Well, you must work like Superman. And for the ones who choose to leave the injectors installed, how do you explain the complaint of "engine lacks power after head gasket replace"? I can explain it quite easily. I can't speak for the other techs, but I can speak for myself quite easily, and that is I only like doing this job ONCE and ONCE only. That said, you better believe I insist on having the heads sent out to be cleaned, magnifluxed, pressure checked etc. I don't about you, but I sure don't think it makes any sense re-installing cylinder head(s) that have issues that are detected during this process that simple straight edging and looking at with the naked eye can't detect.
Check deck for warping with a straight edge, clean and prep surfaces, lay on head gaskets, heads, and bolt them down. reinstall pushrods and rockers, standpipe and put the valve covers back on. Engine still on the engine stand. If you can't do that in a day (8hrs.) with your lunch and coffee breaks, etc. without it being a hack job you shouldn't be turning wrenches for a living.
I can do everything described in the paragraph above, in less than 8 hrs. And yes, definitely without being a hack. I am very open minded to shortcuts, but NOT at the expense of compromising the quality of the repair. That said, you better believe I'm replacing the rocker arm carrier gaskets, all eight injector o-ring kits (as well as having the injectors submerged in FRESH, CLEAN 10W30 diesel engine oil while the heads are out at the machine shop instead of being still installed in the cylinder heads where airborne contaminates can migrate into). And if you hadn't read my previous posts, perhaps you missed the point that I've been wrenching for 17 years (going on 18), so I have been in this business for some time.

25 warranty hrs. is a truck come through the door and needs head gaskets. Ready, set, go. :doh:
So what's your point? What do you think it should pay? What do you do for a living? How much do you charge for your services?
 

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forget about him, he doesn't get it. i worked in the industry for twenty years before i got out because i didn't want to deal with the bs of customers anymore. why is it when you take a shirt to get dry cleaned they give you a ticket for it and tell you to come back the next day for it, and that's ok, but if we can't fix your car right away you go ape sh*t??
 

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if you watch the dry cleaner spray some Fa breeze on your shirt and calls it dry cleaned you'd freak also ,,lol

But I think M -Chan explained the hours for this pretty well In my book
 

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Well, there is always the option, if you can find someone who would be willing to work this way, of having them do it on a time and materials basis. That is, if you feel lucky that they won't run into any issues with it, and it doesn't need anything out of the ordinary. And it is a person who actually knows what they are doing and not just learning on your truck/engine. It's an option, but not common to find someone good who's willing to work on it that way, as the real good ones usually make their money beating the book rate on almost every repair; why would they want to make less on yours? It's just the way the game is played. I suppose if you don't want to play it, learn how to do the repairs yourself, if you have the time, ability and patience to do so. Most ppl don't, some do, sometimes it works out fine, other times, well, not so much. Welcome to the world of modern vehicles, they certainly aren't anywhere near like working on a 65 Mustang, or an F100 with a 352. You could almost crawl into the engine comparment! Ahh the good 'ol days, eh?
 

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Yes, to do the job PROPERLY requires engine removal, mounted on the proper engine stand and yes, front and rear covers removed. However, with the lower half of the engine block removed (a. k. a. the bedplate) and the engine turned upside down, what is supporting the crank other than gravity? That's right, so now the cylinder head R & R will have to wait either BEFORE or AFTER the bedplate seal replace which only adds more time to the process. As far as how much time, is dependent on how the servicing tech chooses to do this job.

Yes, I am assuming that the bedplate job has been completed. We are not talking about time for the bedplate and and cab R&R etc. I am sure all those labor charges are in there as well on their lines.

Really? Well, you must work like Superman. And for the ones who choose to leave the injectors installed, how do you explain the complaint of "engine lacks power after head gasket replace"? I can explain it quite easily. I can't speak for the other techs, but I can speak for myself quite easily, and that is I only like doing this job ONCE and ONCE only. That said, you better believe I insist on having the heads sent out to be cleaned, magnifluxed, pressure checked etc. I don't about you, but I sure don't think it makes any sense re-installing cylinder head(s) that have issues that are detected during this process that simple straight edging and looking at with the naked eye can't detect.

No I'm really slow because I take my time and do the job right the first time as you indicate you do. Most dealers do not disassemble the heads and send them out to be checked. I am glad you do. There are tons of dealership "technicians" that simply pull the heads off and slap a gasket and put the heads back on. If you aren't aware of that maybe it's time for a reality check.

I can do everything described in the paragraph above, in less than 8 hrs. And yes, definitely without being a hack. I am very open minded to shortcuts, but NOT at the expense of compromising the quality of the repair. That said, you better believe I'm replacing the rocker arm carrier gaskets, all eight injector o-ring kits (as well as having the injectors submerged in FRESH, CLEAN 10W30 diesel engine oil while the heads are out at the machine shop instead of being still installed in the cylinder heads where airborne contaminates can migrate into). And if you hadn't read my previous posts, perhaps you missed the point that I've been wrenching for 17 years (going on 18), so I have been in this business for some time.

So you do admit you can do it in 2/3 of the billed time without it being a hack job. That is all I was saying. I know you have been wrenching for a long time. Sometimes I agree with your POV and sometimes I think you are corralled by dealership think. I come at things from the performance side of things so we aren't going to always agree.

So what's your point? What do you think it should pay? What do you do for a living? How much do you charge for your services?
My point is that I think if all of the labor hrs for this job were added up he is probably being over charged. Since you have already agreed that you could do the head gaskets in this scenario in 8 hrs. without resorting to doing a hack job I think that would have probably been fair. What I charge for my services depends on what kind of work I am doing and who I am doing it for. I try to charge fairly for my services. Sometimes it is flat rate sometimes it is T&M.

Look, I don't have anything against guys making an honest living and I don't have a beef with you. In general I don't think you guys get a fair cut of the pie and dealership charges are too high. If the warranty time to repair a job is fair compensation then charging a paying customer 1.5 times that to do the same job is not fair IMHO. If we have to disagree on that I'm ok with it.
 

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forget about him, he doesn't get it. i worked in the industry for twenty years before i got out because i didn't want to deal with the bs of customers anymore. why is it when you take a shirt to get dry cleaned they give you a ticket for it and tell you to come back the next day for it, and that's ok, but if we can't fix your car right away you go ape sh*t??
I absolutely do get it. I am not some wet behind the ears kid and have run my own businesses and worked in the industry too. I have been turning wrenches for over 40 years. I might not be an "expert" but I am far from inexperienced.
 

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i would say 12 hours is fair heck the easy part is pulling the cab getting to the engine. The more time consuming part is doing the studs, ya being a tech the object is to try to make flat rate, and if the person has done 100 head gasket jobs it will only take him 8 hours well thats how he feeds his family.
 

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Two points to ponder. If the job pays 2 hours and you are waiting in the customer waiting area, do you want it to take two hours (or more) because of inexperience or do you want the shop foreman to blow through it correctly in 45 min.? AND Can you really penalize a technician for being good, fast, experienced-just which ever term you want to use? I once heard a shop owner say, "you can't blame my man for being fast" as he collected the money. These questions are not aimed at anyone specific, just stirring the pot a bit to make people think.
 
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