Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been collecting parts, pieces, tanks & drums for a few months now, but have been reluctant to start fabricating my setup until I had a good source of oil. That time has finally come, and I now have more than I can possably use, and I plan on heating my house, garage, shop, and running it in my truck!

I have a couple of questions:

As far as collecting - I like the idea of a 12v pump because of noise, but am not against 120v (I have a welder / generator mounted in my truck), or air.
The drawback to using an AC powered pump, is the noise of the generator, and the problem with a pressurized tank setup (from what I've read) is the lack of being able to pick up large quantities.
I want to be able to collect 275 gallons at a time, and not be there all day!
Any suggestions would be appreciated, as far as pumps, or setup.

2nd question - I noticed that at one of the locations that I will be collecting from, the top was off the container, and it was raining at the time. Does this mean that the oil is unusable, or can it be dried out enough to use?

3rd question - do you guys check the oil by titration prior to picking it up? If I did not use the proper wording there, sorry, I'm new to all of this. I ask this question because the only way this chain of resturaunts would give me the oil, is if I collected from all of their locations. They have 4 locations, all producing about 40 gallons a week, and I can't really be picky. I have to take what they have, no matter what it titrates at.

4th question - I just picked up an old 1000 gallon diesel tank that I'm sure has rust in it. I plan on using it as a holding tank for unfiltered oil, but don't know if the rust will bother it. My pickup will not be on the very bottom, but I don't want to end up with a $hit load of unusable oil, then have to figure out how to get rid of it!

Last one - at what point is the oil unusable? I have read that I should be looking for oil that titrates under 3.0ml (whatever that means)? I know I need to research more on the actual process, but I have been concentrating my efforts on an oil supply, and researching the actual fabrication of the equipment.

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm excited to get this going, and as of this coming Sunday, I will be picking up 160 gallons of WVO a week, and want to start doing something with it :woot:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
I can answer the question about the tank. Mine had some rust in it as well, and old timer told me this and it works. Roll it around beating the hell out of the sides with a rubber hammer, don't be scared!! Roll it over so that the fill, gauge, and pump ports are on the bottom and beat it some more. Most of the big stuff will fall out of the holes, then tape a 1.5" diameter piece of pvc to your shop vac hose suck the rest out. I took it one step further after that I put bout 100 gallons of water in it, plugged the holes and rolled it around couple times and drained the water out, it took the rest of the fine dust out. Worked good for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That would probably work for me if the tank didn't weigh about 1300 pounds! I had a backhoe load it on the trailer for me, then I pushed it into my "shed" with my truck, which is where it will stay. The shed is not big enough to roll it over, and I already F'd up my driveway pushing it in there.

I'm thinking about cutting a man size hole in it, so I can have someone come sandblast it, but if I can get away with beating the $hit out of it w/ a BFH, and having my pickup tube about 4" off the bottom, that would save a bunch of time & money?

I don't think I will pick up any rust when I suck it out, I'm just wondering if the oil coming in contact with all that rust will affect it in a negitive way?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
567 Posts
Well first off, welcome to the dark side :).

QUESTION ONE: Ok on with the questions. IF you want to collect a huge sum of oil(and not be there all day) you going to need something with a constant duty cycle.. like a gasoline fired pump. Harbour freight has one that is pretty cheap, i's suggest getting something like that.

QUESTION TWO: Rain is fine you will need to dewater the oil though, and make sure you have alot of it out. You can leave some oil in the continers(like 6 inches) and just collect everything up top.

QUESTION THREE and FIVE: It would be wise to check the tritration value BEFORE you agree to take there oil. If your using a base base reaction method(which I assume you are) when your limited to about 5-6ml of tritration. Anything higher than that and you will have a rough time getting a good quality fuel(alot of it will be soap and not usable). The whole ml of triation is the about of your trition fuild that it takes to neutrilze the oil and have a solid reaction. If your using indicator solution.. its the first poin that everything turns slightly purple or orange(depending upon what indicator your using).

As for the rust in the tank you can use it but it would stick a filter on your colelction line before it hits any pumps. I woudl go with the highest micron rating you can have(200, I dont even know if they make spin on filters that high). Alot of that crap will settle out in the glycerine stage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I have been waiting for you to chime in Scuilli - I think about 1/2 of what I have learned about this process has come from you, and you didn't even know it! Thanks

Anyways, I have already made the deal with the restaraunt chain, and I have to pick up their oil. I don't own, or use any type of titration kit yet, so I have no idea what I have gotten myself into! The only thing I do know, is that they only fry fish, clams ect., and they change their oil daily.

My next purchase is going to be a titration kit, which type / brand do you recomend?

Also, just as another option, is titration important if I was to go with a Vegistroke kit?

Last night I read about a guy that runs SVO, and F'd up a couple injectors because he picked up a batch of oil that had some type of cleaner in it (for the fryer). Is there any way to test for other chemicals that may be present in the oil? Anything else I should be looking out for?

Do any of you guys have any experience with those little pumps that look like they have a weedwacker motor on them? I think they advertise something like 28 - 30GPM, but I'm thinking that rating is probably for like water, or something? Any insight is appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
891 Posts
PRD - How far are you from Black River NY? There is a guy in Black River (Dan) that is an authorized Vegistroke installer/reseller. Dan is a great guy and I am sure he would be more than willing to show you his system if you wanted to see the Vegistroke up and running. Let me know and I can get you his cell if you are interested. I will actually be up to visit him sometime in May.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I dont know where Black River, NY is, but I have rafted down the Black River before? Can't be too far. I still havn't decided which way I want to go yet. I was thinking biodiesel for the last few months, but the bigger my business gets, the less time I have to spend on it. That's why I am now considering SVO.

Anyways, as far as collecting, I just picked up a pump today, and I am going to try it out tomorrow.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
891 Posts
Looks like it should do the trick. Let us know how it works out for you. I think Black River is like 1 hour North of Syracuse (straight up 81). I would think that is right in your neck of the woods. Let me know if you want more information.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
567 Posts
You can make your own tritration kit. Its prety easy.. you can find parts list on Welcome - Collaborative Biodiesel Tutorial Website. It wont cost all that much. You dont need to tritrate if using WVO. If your concered with tossing injectors due to fryer cleaning.. then I'm not really sure if I can assist you. The tritation is setup to find out how much catlayst is needed to neturalize all the acids in the oil. To find if the oil is highly acidic or high base.. i assume you could do it but I'm a mechanical engineer.. so chemisty is not my strong suit. Oil does not really have a PH persay.. but if there using chems to clean the fryers.. it will sway the Ph...if that makes sense. See you can "find" the PH of the oil.. but its more for trending. Myabe it will be right on.. maybe it wont be. You typically check your PH readings with another reader and then trend the results. So if you had new virgin oil you could see how it reads and then compare it to your oil. If your doing the whole biodiesel thing then your fine cause you going to dump more lye in there.

I just saw an interesting thing about SVO vs. Biodiesel for Alternative fuels. It was hanging up in one of the professor’s labs and one of my buddies was working on it. Apparently they were doing tests with SVO and comparing it to current usage in diesels. They were wrapping up testing and I happen to come into the lab. I was looking over there data, and I saw a graph that they were making up. It showed the viscosity of WVO vs. Temperature. Around 88 C (190F) the oil is at its most viscous state. On the same graph they had diesel fuel and I think the difference was around about 10mm^2/sec. the oil had a viscosity of like 8-10 times the viscosity of diesel at the temp. Its exponentially more viscous, if you decrease the temperature. They were comparing durability of long term performance with the two fuels, but as I see it now... there only in the initial stages. No actual testing will be done for some time, but there results are not in favor of WVO systems at all for Long term durability of current DI diesel engines. Overhaul peroids for Bidoeisle is no walk int he park either. It cuts some time off of the life, no doubt... but just to a lesser degree than WVO.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
So in plain terms, the only way to use an alternative fuel, and make your engine last as long as it would on dino, is to keep the viscosity the same?

How does the viscosity of bio, compare to dino?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
....... It showed the viscosity of WVO vs. Temperature. Around 88 C (190F) the oil is at its most viscous state. On the same graph they had diesel fuel and I think the difference was around about 10mm^2/sec. the oil had a viscosity of like 8-10 times the viscosity of diesel at the temp.

Was the measurement for viscosity on the WVO and diesel taken at 190F for both? Would not a more accurate depiction for a comparison of a two tank wvo setup be the vicosity of diesel at its regular operating temp vs the wvo that is heated?

Would love to see the actual data and specifics parameters of this testing. I'm a bit cautious of drawing a conclusion when, as you said, no testing will be done for some time.

Good stuff and thank your buddy for the research.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
750 Posts
I think what he was saying in laymans terms is that..at it's thinnest, WVO is 8-10 times thicker than diesel, with the diesel being at normal "room" temp. Please Sciulli, correct me if I'm wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,150 Posts
Is that after blending and/or heating?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,566 Posts
Other than causing issues with the injectors what is the problem with the WVO being thicker and how would that correlate to the longevity of the engine? :confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Other than causing issues with the injectors....... :confused:

While I don't believe your post was to state using SVO causes issues with injectors I believe it will be read as such by some. Prob best that we try not to use blanket terms. Some engines will work better than others using SVO and injector problems or failure are all over the board as to what is believed to be the reasoning. Please keep in mind that injectors can and have failed on engines using only dino. I've seen reports of a few issues but not enough with concrete proof that the SVO was the complete culprit. I think the research is still way to young to draw absolute conclusions. Most problems I have seen in the PS are a result of improper filtering or not heating the oil enough.

With that said, all research being conducted is great but we must keep mindful that the results are dependant of the parameters of the study. I like to use the anology of baking a cake, change one ingredient, say salt for the sugar, and you get quite a different outcome. Doing a study using a VW TDI engine will not neccessarily apply to PS engines and vice versa, though, it doesn't neccessarily mean it won't either.

I think what he was saying in laymans terms is that..at it's thinnest, WVO is 8-10 times thicker than diesel, with the diesel being at normal "room" temp.
If that was indeed what the testing shows I am quite surprised. I would not have guess heated SVO to be that different than diesel at normal temps. Wow
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,566 Posts
While I don't believe your post was to state using SVO causes issues with injectors I believe it will be read as such by some. Prob best that we try not to use blanket terms. Some engines will work better than others using SVO and injector problems or failure are all over the board as to what is believed to be the reasoning. Please keep in mind that injectors can and have failed on engines using only dino. I've seen reports of a few issues but not enough with concrete proof that the SVO was the complete culprit. I think the research is still way to young to draw absolute conclusions. Most problems I have seen in the PS are a result of improper filtering or not heating the oil enough.

You are right, I don't mean that the WVO or SVO causes the actual problem for the injectors. What I mean is that the thicker the substance going through the injector the harder the injector is going to have to work in order to properly atomize the liquid. Thus over time it could cause an issue. Which is also why they say to heat the WVO and SVO (really not sure the diffence between WVO and SVO sorry) so that it gets through the system better. Am I thinking along the correct lines here or am I totally off base?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
567 Posts
Well viscosity only is important in certain regards. If the fuel has high viscosity then it will leak past the piston rings and get it into the oil(possibly). Even Bio has a higher viscosity than dino(not by much), which is why they have overhaul periods cut by a fair percentage for B50 engines. With straight veggie oil you’re more prone to cokeing injectors than with Biodiesel... as to why.. I’m not entirely sure on. IT may have to do with the "glycerin" part of the oil that you burn... were as I get rid of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Just an update on the pump that I am using, I couldn't be happier! It was 50 degrees while I was collecting, and it could pump 55 gallons in about 5 minutes. All together, I collected 7-1/2 drums, from 3 different locations (a little over 400 gallons), in about 1-1/2 hours. I'm new to this, but that sounds pretty good to me!

Also, I was able to get 26 plastic 55 gallon drums for free yesterday from a local frozen food distributor. They had anything from soy sauce, to strawberries & maple syrup in them, but they went through some kind of triple rinse process, and are as clean as new.

Getting ready to go pick up 2 - 275 gallon totes in a little bit, 1 will be mounted on the collection trailer that I am putting together, and the other will be for either finished bio, or dried & filtered SVO - depending on which way I go?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
567 Posts
Cool. Keep us posted. I start to run B60 in my truck now that its warmer. I'm looking ahead to the new 08's. I'm going to be done with school and I got a nice job lined up so I think I may buy one of them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Well, he told me that he had 2, and he would sell them for $50 each. Turns out he had 3, so I offered him $125 - sold! He also threw in a brand new 60 gallon galvanized steel tank for free. I don't know what the hell I'm going to do with it, but it was free, so I took it.





This is starting to get fun, cant wait to start burning some!
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top