[FDiesel05]

I have been searching around the forums and can't really find anything, I was wondering if anyone has experience with it? And since it is waterless is it ok to run in our trucks, or is it better to use a different kind of coolant? And at the moment I'm not worried about cost I want the best way to get rid of that gold ****. And I am replacing my oil cooler and egr valve after the new year, my eot and ect temps are about 4-6 degrees different at normal driving temps so should I wait till all that is done? Also I will not be deleting the egr I will be going with bullet proof diesels kit and also with their oil cooler. Thanks Bob

 

[howell_jd]

No experience with Evans but here is what Evans Waterless NPG+ coolant is (NPG stands for Non-aqueous Propylene Glycol):

30% Propylene Glycol mixed with 70% Ethylene Glycol (regular coolant base)
http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/pdf_3415_3.pdf

You may buy it through DieselSite.com for...wait for it...$30.50 per GALLON...but...because you don't add water to this you have to buy SEVEN gallons for a system fill after a very thorough flush and sufficient ventilation to allow the system to DRY OUT - you don't want any water remaining in the system (difficult to achieve).

As a coolant, Evans gets around the corrosive properties of water by eliminating water and since the propylene glycol has a higher viscosity than water, that addresses the issue of cavitation as well. These are two components of concern in diesel engines especially with mixed metal construction...BUT WAIT...

It is flammable too. It auto-ignites at 1055 degrees F. While it is unlikely that your coolant will get to 1055 degrees (your engine block melts before this happens in all likelihood) if you have any coolant drip onto the exhaust manifold...you know right UNDERNEATH the coolant bottle?...it could catch fire because your exhaust manifold does get to 1055 degrees F from time to time.

Since I've never used it I can't say definitively how it would perform in the oil cooler. While at least theoretically with no elements to produce debris it seems like a good concept, I'm not prepared to put a potentially volatile in a system sealed less fully than the fuel system.

The 6.0L like most vehicles uses a pressurized cooling system (16psi cap) to keep the coolant from boiling. With Evans you wouldn't need a pressurized cooling system but I am not sure how you would eliminate the pressurization...maybe the system just doesn't pressurize because there is no water to liberate from the mixture into steam? That is probably it.

It's oily too so many performance sports venues do not allow its use (or regular coolant either...only water at those sites).

I got my VC-9 from K-Mans Sports:
Motorcraft diesel engine coolant system iron cleaner VC9

Hope this helps get a start for your answers. I too would like to hear more on this but I'm not going to advocate this stuff...seems too risky to me for a 6.0L from a safety standpoint - I'm not doubting any claims just the application in a 6.0L as prudent.

Jonathan

 

[PGreenSVT]

I agree with Jonathan on this. I looked into using this as an alternative to the G-05 and decided against it.

If you are going to continue to keep the egr system but install a Bulletproof egr cooler and oil cooler you will have eliminated the oil cooler as a failure point. As far as I am aware there haven't been any reported Bulletproof oil coolers clogging up. I was considering putting the new Rotella Ultra ELC in when I install my Bulletproof oil cooler over xmas break, however I was not able to locate any, even at Rotella's regional distributor. So when my new oil cooler goes in I will be flushing out the Fleetrite currently in it and putting Delo ELC concentrate back in. Delo claims 750k miles, 12000 hours, or 8 years as a service interval, with 1 million miles with an additive pack at 500k.

But realistically, any ELC coolant is pretty much a lifetime coolant for these trucks.

 

[FDiesel05]

No experience with Evans but here is what Evans Waterless NPG+ coolant is (NPG stands for Non-aqueous Propylene Glycol):

30% Propylene Glycol mixed with 70% Ethylene Glycol (regular coolant base)
http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/pdf_3415_3.pdf

You may buy it through DieselSite.com for...wait for it...$30.50 per GALLON...but...because you don't add water to this you have to buy SEVEN gallons for a system fill after a very thorough flush and sufficient ventilation to allow the system to DRY OUT - you don't want any water remaining in the system (difficult to achieve).

As a coolant, Evans gets around the corrosive properties of water by eliminating water and since the propylene glycol has a higher viscosity than water, that addresses the issue of cavitation as well. These are two components of concern in diesel engines especially with mixed metal construction...BUT WAIT...

It is flammable too. It auto-ignites at 1055 degrees F. While it is unlikely that your coolant will get to 1055 degrees (your engine block melts before this happens in all likelihood) if you have any coolant drip onto the exhaust manifold...you know right UNDERNEATH the coolant bottle?...it could catch fire because your exhaust manifold does get to 1055 degrees F from time to time.

Since I've never used it I can't say definitively how it would perform in the oil cooler. While at least theoretically with no elements to produce debris it seems like a good concept, I'm not prepared to put a potentially volatile in a system sealed less fully than the fuel system.

The 6.0L like most vehicles uses a pressurized cooling system (16psi cap) to keep the coolant from boiling. With Evans you wouldn't need a pressurized cooling system but I am not sure how you would eliminate the pressurization...maybe the system just doesn't pressurize because there is no water to liberate from the mixture into steam? That is probably it.

It's oily too so many performance sports venues do not allow its use (or regular coolant either...only water at those sites).

I got my VC-9 from K-Mans Sports:
Motorcraft diesel engine coolant system iron cleaner VC9

Hope this helps get a start for your answers. I too would like to hear more on this but I'm not going to advocate this stuff...seems too risky to me for a 6.0L from a safety standpoint - I'm not doubting any claims just the application in a 6.0L as prudent.

Jonathan

Thanks for the detail answer lol. I think you have some valid points, where I don't wanna be the guinea pig on this one. And to be honest I am kinda of dreading doing the coolant flush in the first place, not that I'm not mechanically incline this is just my first diesel vehicle. So getting the whole system dry with no water would be difficult enough. I am also not fond of the flammable part, filling seven gallons with out spilling well I don't have the steadiest hand in the world. Haha thanks for the link I didn't know it was a motor craft product so that made it a little difficult for the google machine lol. Thanks

I agree with Jonathan on this. I looked into using this as an alternative to the G-05 and decided against it.

If you are going to continue to keep the egr system but install a Bulletproof egr cooler and oil cooler you will have eliminated the oil cooler as a failure point. As far as I am aware there haven't been any reported Bulletproof oil coolers clogging up. I was considering putting the new Rotella Ultra ELC in when I install my Bulletproof oil cooler over xmas break, however I was not able to locate any, even at Rotella's regional distributor. So when my new oil cooler goes in I will be flushing out the Fleetrite currently in it and putting Delo ELC concentrate back in. Delo claims 750k miles, 12000 hours, or 8 years as a service interval, with 1 million miles with an additive pack at 500k.

But realistically, any ELC coolant is pretty much a lifetime coolant for these trucks.

It doesn't seem logical answer for me right now, I plan on keeping the egr at the moment PA doesn't have emissions at the moment but that can change any moment. I really want a one a done shot at this, I love this truck and want to make this purchase last longer that a few years. I will look for a local dealer for the Delo elc, I like the idea of lifetime coolant lol.

Should I wait to change the egr and the oil cooler and at the same time change the coolant? I also plan on purchasing a filtration kit from diesel site for the coolant too.

Thanks again guys
Bob

 

[2 stroker]

:dunno:Why are you changing out your coolers that is normal running temps the oil will always run about 4*more than the coolent. Do the flush and then do the Delo ELC coolent concentrate you will be good, here is the flush


ELC is the coolant recommended and used by International for this engine. .


Coolant Flush for changing to ELC

Drain coolant by removing lower radiator hose. Drain block from plug on drivers side of the block. Remove the thermostat. Replace plug in block and put lower hose back on. Put thermostat housing back on without thermostat. Fill with distilled water. run for 5 minutes then drain as above..Fill and run 5 more minutes drain. Put in 1 gallon of Restore an top with distilled water. Drive it for an 60-90 minutes then drain. Flush 2 times with distilled water or whatever it takes to come clear. Put 2 qts of VC-9 or 1 gallon of Restore+ cost less and fill with distilled water. Drive it for about 60-90 minutes. Drain and flush after. Flush 3 more times with distilled water untill it come out clean. Replace thermostat or put in a new one. Put hose back, make sure block plug is tight. Add 3.5 gallons of ELC concentrate and top off with distilled water. Make sure to run engine for 5 minutes between flushes to circulate the water good. Have heater on set to hi while doing this to flush the heater core too.
2 stroker

 

[FDiesel05]

I was gonna do the coolers for more or less precautionary measures. I plan on getting a tuner later down the road. I thought the coolant was part of the problem?

Thanks for the instructions for flushing my system

 

[lordVader]

I use it and I think its great...never a problem, and better heat in the winter.
Seems like common sense to not have water (and all the cons that go with it) in the system.
my mods in sig.
good luck !

 

[2 stroker]

I was gonna do the coolers for more or less precautionary measures. I plan on getting a tuner later down the road. I thought the coolant was part of the problem?

Thanks for the instructions for flushing my system

Yes the coolent IS the problem but if the numbers you give are right there is nothing wrong with your cooler do the Flush and you should be good. The tuner has nothing to do with the cooler if they are clean it is the head bolts, with a tuner you may stretch them, the best way is to install ARP studs then do a EGR delete to keep the heat down then a tuner.
2 stroker

 

[howell_jd]

I see you are running a coolant filter along with the NPG+ (suspenders with a belt! I am impressed although with a water-meth injection system I suspect you were running hotter to begin with). Have you perhaps requested spectrometal analysis of the coolant or tested the pH or whatever maintenance is required for proper concentration balance management of the Evans? Thanks for the report! Do you mind sharing miles/hours on your NPG+ and your flush method prior to its introduction to your cooling system?

Jonathan

 

[CT Performance Inc.]

Long story short..I talked to every radiator and water pump manufactor and every one said don't use it..Good enough for me.

 

[howell_jd]

Most products have bad elements along with good elements. There are few PERFECT fluids (coolant, oil, fuel, etc.). I don't know enough about Evans to be confident to use it myself BUT I am interested to find out WHY it is not endorsed especially if the lack of support can be validated. Our whole community grows through the sharing of these legitimate justifications and/or explanations.

I personally see no problem using Motorcraft Premium Gold or any low-silicate, nitrite infused coolant BUT it requires more maintenance and observation OR the consequences are blocked oil coolers and blown EGR coolers. Clearly there are better alternatives. The technology has grown since the introduction of Premium Gold. It is not accurate to endorse the presumption that ONLY Premium Gold will allow your Ford 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel to operate properly as some documentation would leave you to believe. If only academically, I would like to seek out the benefits and the drawbacks to coolant alternatives including the new Rotella Ultra ELC with a stronger molybdate mixture and the Evans' waterless products.

My own limited research indicates that Evans has re-worked their mixture of ethylene and propylene glycols to raise the flash point from as low as 700 degrees to 1055 degrees. That's a very significant change (perhaps still not enough of a safety factor for me yet but a substantial improvement).

Many racetracks won't allow propylene glycol (and Evans by name) but it is inaccurate to say racetracks don't like Evans' products because they ALSO don't allow for the use of regular coolants with only ethylene glycol as both products make the track slick.

So I do request to hear the discussion from the radiator manufacturers, the water pump manufacturers, the repair men, the service technicians, as well as the customers who voted with their wallets!

Thanks!

Jonathan

 

[PGreenSVT]

Yes the coolent IS the problem but if the numbers you give are right there is nothing wrong with your cooler do the Flush and you should be good. The tuner has nothing to do with the cooler if they are clean it is the head bolts, with a tuner you may stretch them, the best way is to install ARP studs then do a EGR delete to keep the heat down then a tuner.
2 stroker

Tuners don't stretch head bolts. Any good aftermarket tune writer goes to great lengths to make sure they keep the cylinder pressures down so you don't have problems. What stretches head bolts is coolant getting into the cylinders from ruptured egr coolers. When that happens the coolant flashes creating steam and generating much higher than normal cylinder pressures. Even ARP head studs won't withstand the pressures generated by steam from too much water entering the cylinder.

The Bulletproof oil cooler is the best cooler going for our trucks at this time. As a preventive measure if you want to replace the oem oil cooler with the Bulletproof cooler and have the money to do so it is a great mod for your truck. If you are worried about the delete their egr cooler is first rate too. Keep in mind that if emissions laws change you can always take the delete off and reinstall the egr cooler and egr valve. I wouldn't mess around with the egr cooler without doing the oil cooler because you are duplicating work.

While it is down you should go ahead and update the STC fitting and Dummy plugs, as well as the HPOP reservoir screen.

The Delo can be hard to find Bob. I just bought a case myself. If you are on the south side of Philly I bought mine from the regional distributor. They are right off Rt 1 at the Md./Pa. line. The company is Reit Lubrications, 15 Sylmar Rd. Rising Sun Md. I got a case of concentrate for $108. I drove up from Belair Md. even though I could get regular Prestone ELC or Fleetrite ELC locally. It was a nice day for a scenic little drive and I wanted to put Delo in it.

 

[FDiesel05]

First I would like to thank everyone for their feedback.

I use it and I think its great...never a problem, and better heat in the winter.
Seems like common sense to not have water (and all the cons that go with it) in the system.
my mods in sig.
good luck !

I would like to know, how many miles you have had it on your truck? Did you do it before, during or after your studs? And what is your normal operating temps for your ect?

Yes the coolent IS the problem but if the numbers you give are right there is nothing wrong with your cooler do the Flush and you should be good. The tuner has nothing to do with the cooler if they are clean it is the head bolts, with a tuner you may stretch them, the best way is to install ARP studs then do a EGR delete to keep the heat down then a tuner.
2 stroker

Tuners don't stretch head bolts. Any good aftermarket tune writer goes to great lengths to make sure they keep the cylinder pressures down so you don't have problems. What stretches head bolts is coolant getting into the cylinders from ruptured egr coolers. When that happens the coolant flashes creating steam and generating much higher than normal cylinder pressures. Even ARP head studs won't withstand the pressures generated by steam from too much water entering the cylinder.

The Bulletproof oil cooler is the best cooler going for our trucks at this time. As a preventive measure if you want to replace the oem oil cooler with the Bulletproof cooler and have the money to do so it is a great mod for your truck. If you are worried about the delete their egr cooler is first rate too. Keep in mind that if emissions laws change you can always take the delete off and reinstall the egr cooler and egr valve. I wouldn't mess around with the egr cooler without doing the oil cooler because you are duplicating work.

While it is down you should go ahead and update the STC fitting and Dummy plugs, as well as the HPOP reservoir screen.

The Delo can be hard to find Bob. I just bought a case myself. If you are on the south side of Philly I bought mine from the regional distributor. They are right off Rt 1 at the Md./Pa. line. The company is Reit Lubrications, 15 Sylmar Rd. Rising Sun Md. I got a case of concentrate for $108. I drove up from Belair Md. even though I could get regular Prestone ELC or Fleetrite ELC locally. It was a nice day for a scenic little drive and I wanted to put Delo in it.

I recently just installed the insight cs, normal operating temps are 4-6 degrees apart, when under hard acceleration the ect raise to around 8-12 degrees and then comes back down under normal driving. I drive the truck hard but I don't beat on it, from what I read hard driving is recommended(to keep the turbo reliable). So from what I understand my egr and oil cooler are reliable at the moment. But I still get the vibe that replacing both would be a good idea. Which I am all for, and as far as the tuner goes, I will be going with a sct tuner and tuned from innovate, dp-tuner, looney tunes, etc, etc. And like Pgreensvt (sorry I don't know your name lol) it is doing the work twice if I do one at a time, and not both while the motor is apart. Now of the stc fitting you speak of I have read that the 03's are more reliable than the newer models, now would I replace it with a 03 or an aftermarket? And the dummy bolts are they like the 08+ banjo bolts or are they two different beast? I don't know what either are though haha. And the Hpop screen I have read that HPOP can fail from leaking oil or just complete failure totally, does changing the screen change that at all or is that a whole another beast?

Well I check Delos website and there is one close by in Warminster which is about 45 minutes away, but if the maryland one is closer I wouldn't mind the ride. Now on there website they say pepboys is a retail dealer could I have them order it for me?

Long story short..I talked to every radiator and water pump manufactor and every one said don't use it..Good enough for me.

Most products have bad elements along with good elements. There are few PERFECT fluids (coolant, oil, fuel, etc.). I don't know enough about Evans to be confident to use it myself BUT I am interested to find out WHY it is not endorsed especially if the lack of support can be validated. Our whole community grows through the sharing of these legitimate justifications and/or explanations.

I personally see no problem using Motorcraft Premium Gold or any low-silicate, nitrite infused coolant BUT it requires more maintenance and observation OR the consequences are blocked oil coolers and blown EGR coolers. Clearly there are better alternatives. The technology has grown since the introduction of Premium Gold. It is not accurate to endorse the presumption that ONLY Premium Gold will allow your Ford 6.0L PowerStroke Diesel to operate properly as some documentation would leave you to believe. If only academically, I would like to seek out the benefits and the drawbacks to coolant alternatives including the new Rotella Ultra ELC with a stronger molybdate mixture and the Evans' waterless products.

My own limited research indicates that Evans has re-worked their mixture of ethylene and propylene glycols to raise the flash point from as low as 700 degrees to 1055 degrees. That's a very significant change (perhaps still not enough of a safety factor for me yet but a substantial improvement).

Many racetracks won't allow propylene glycol (and Evans by name) but it is inaccurate to say racetracks don't like Evans' products because they ALSO don't allow for the use of regular coolants with only ethylene glycol as both products make the track slick.

So I do request to hear the discussion from the radiator manufacturers, the water pump manufacturers, the repair men, the service technicians, as well as the customers who voted with their wallets!

Thanks!

Jonathan

And as Major Howell said can we get more information on your sources, because like everyone else here the more information we can get the better, from what I understand there really isn't a bigger benefit to using the Evans coolant, it is expensive, flammable and not track compliant. The non-corrosive is nice but is it worth it? Now I probably won't be going the track anytime soon so I'm not worried about that. But the other two I am. So any insight you have would be appreciated.

 

[PGreenSVT]

Bob, my name is Mitch. I checked Delo's locator too and couln't find anyone who actually had any except for Reit. But I wasn't checking up around Philly. I was just letting you know where I found it in case you couldn't find any locally.

Ford has an updated STC fitting which is a one piece design. That's what you would use. The dummy plugs go in the heads where the High Pressure Oil feeds are. They have them in both ends of the heads so they can be used on either side of the motor. They feed they oil rail via the stand pipe or get blocked off with the dummy plugs. The original HPOP screens had a tendency to fail. Ford updated the part with a stainless screen that resists tearing much better. It is just to prevent any debris from entering the HPOP.

 

[Evil Eye]

Great informative thread. I would just add on to Mitch's post that the 03 and 04 HPOP's have different branch tubes so do not have an STC fitting. This would make it impossible to just change the HPOP without all the associated plumbing. As a point of fact, the early HPOP's didn't have problems with the STC fitting (they didn't have one), they have a higher failure rate. I would stick with your 2006 HPOP, Bob and update the STC fitting to the newer one piece style if it hasn't been done already. :thumb:

 

[NYC F-350]

Count me in as someone else that would like to hear more from the waterpump manufacturers and radiator manufacturers as to why they do not recommend the Evans NPG+ coolant.
Could it be that the coolant is run in a pressure-less environment? That would certainly reduce the wear/tear on the hoses, the waterpump seals and since it is non-corrosive, wouldn't your radiator last longer? Is this why they do not recommend it?
(Just playing the devils advocate here, I have limited to no knowledge of coolant, cooling systems)

To me it sounds as though the NPG+ is a winner. No worries about corrosion in my cooling system, lose the silicates and lessen the chances of a catastrophic water hose failure since there is little to no pressure, just flow. Even if i get a pinhole in my radiator, I will be able to drive it to go get it repaired or get a new one. Try that with the pressurized system.
Sure the initial cost is higher, but aren't most worthwhile mods costly? What did your tuner/oversized injectors/larger turbo/lift kit/water injection/EGR delete/full set of gauges/exhaust/intake/custom tunes cost you? Less than the $210 it will cost for this.

I have not, nor will I ever, race my truck down (or around) a track, so that is of little concern to me.
I am fairly certain that I can keep the coolant off my exhaust manifold during a fill.
I also think that the possibility of having coolant from a pressure-less system spray on my exhaust manifold when it is anywhere near 1055 degrees are remote. If you really want to add a measure of safety to it, when you drill the degas cap you add a hose barb to it, attach a hose to that and vent it down past the exhaust manifold, along the frame. That would do it.


From what I read on dieselsite (the seller), contrary to what was written earlier, you do not have to have a dry coolant system before adding the Evans product. Heres a direct copy/paste from the directions for the recommended flushing process. I noticed it lacks the "VC-9 then Restore" step.....

This whole process takes about 3 hours.

1) Drain the radiator by opening the pet c o c k.

2) Remove the lower radiator hose from the radiator.

3) Drain the block by removing both block drains.

4) Remove upper heater hose from top of water pump and run water thru this hose.(this flushes out the heater core)

5) Blow water out of heater core with air compressor by blowing air thru this disconnected hose. The water will drain out the open block drains.

6) Run clean water thru open radiator tank to flush tank out. (you will most likely see teaspoons of sand in the bottom of this tank when you drain the coolant)

7) Let everything drain for about 15 minutes.

8) Plug all drains, reconnect heater hose, and fill system.

9) Drill small (1/16"-1/8") hole in cap to allow any water to evaporate out of system. This also incorporates the 0-pressure system and keeps the sytem from building pressure.

10) You're done. Now, just watch the level over the next couple weeks for a drop in level from water evaporating. You will loose about 2-4 quarts over the next couple weeks, then it will stop.
END QUOTE

So, please, If anyone has more information about this, I (and many others) would love to hear about it. I am also going to write Bob over at Dieselsite and get his thoughts. I will share them here, and copy/paste a few of the concerns raised (ie: manufacturers, flammability) or by sending him a link and having him read this thread in full.

 

[CT Performance Inc.]

All I can say is google WP and RAD manufactors and take 1/2 hour and call them..I don't sell Evans, WP's or Rad's and nothing at all to sell to compete against them, don't have stock in Prestone etc..just relaying what I was told..when I was thinking about using Evans..but wasn't taking what the manufactor or sellers said for facts.

 

[superjet701k]

I have been searching around the forums and can't really find anything, I was wondering if anyone has experience with it? And since it is waterless is it ok to run in our trucks, or is it better to use a different kind of coolant? And at the moment I'm not worried about cost I want the best way to get rid of that gold ****. And I am replacing my oil cooler and egr valve after the new year, my eot and ect temps are about 4-6 degrees different at normal driving temps so should I wait till all that is done? Also I will not be deleting the egr I will be going with bullet proof diesels kit and also with their oil cooler. Thanks Bob

4-6 deg different is better than normal ive seen alot wider spread several times with new coolers. 20 degrees differance is not uncommon and really not that big of a deal. heavy duty oil running at 220 deg is really average in any car or truck. but id love to have your used old junky one cause my brand new ford one runs 220 from the dealer. egr valve just clean it with a wire brush and parts washer cause it will be all carbon up in six months :icon_ford:

 

[Evil Eye]

I also think that the possibility of having coolant from a pressure-less system spray on my exhaust manifold when it is anywhere near 1055 degrees are remote

I would be concerned about when the EGR cooler ruptures and the Evan's coolant comes into contact with the hot exhaust gas, which we KNOW can get pretty high. I have seen 1300* for extended periods when towing and I am VERY careful to monitor my temps. Just like you, playing devils advocate.

 

[NYC F-350]

I would be concerned about when the EGR cooler ruptures and the Evan's coolant comes into contact with the hot exhaust gas, which we KNOW can get pretty high. I have seen 1300* for extended periods when towing and I am VERY careful to monitor my temps. Just like you, playing devils advocate.

Maybe I should have added the fact that I plan on an EGR delete when/if I go with the Evans product. (This coming spring)

Even if/when the EGR fails, and it comes in contact with exhaust gases, the issue would instantly be seen if you monitor your EGT. It would shoot thru the roof rather quickly, would it not? It would burn instead of flooding.
And since the Evans is flammable/combustible, would that lower your chances of eating head gaskets compared to the ELC stuff if the EGR failed?? Just tossing out ideas, as un-informed and dumb as they may sound.