[whobub]

Just in case you're wondering... yes, I have already checked as many searched topics as possible--I am falling asleep for 2 days now reading all the things that is pointing to my particular issue, only to find out it not to be my issue. Here we go...

1999 7.3
205K miles

First, in case you're wondering, there are no codes being thrown. I spent way too much money at a Ford diesel only place & they could not find anything wrong. Could not duplicate the problem.

The symptoms are:

1) it starts perfectly fine -- cranks etc on any given day as long as the engine is cold.
2) On warmer days (over 65) if driven for 15+ mins, it will NOT CRANK
-- no starter engagement,
-- no clicking,
-- no dead batteries
3) After 30 minutes of waiting (hood up) it's been able to start (after cooling down)
4) This last time it would not start after cooling down for over an hour
5) After towing back to house, 2 hours later, OF COURSE it starts!

The CLOSEST to my problem boiled down to a loose "shifter tube". Not so easy on it's fine. Another promising thread talked about the starter over heating. The ones I've read didn't pan out to that -- of course after they replaced the starter.

Before I have you all going down a mink hole (a rat hole that feels good), it has already been cleared of having issues with oil rail or injector o-rings, standpipe, dummy plugs, IPR, EGR, STC, E-I-E-I-O, or any other acronyms containing R These issues of course will give no-starts also, BUT the starter engages, just no start. Mine is NOT that.

Again, this is a no-starter-engagement no start issue. Engages/starts fine when cold, NO starter engagement, no clicks, only extended cool down times to restart.

Any clues ya all,

Thanks,

Jesse/WhoBuB

 

[NoRalPh]

OK,,, but YOU haven't replaced the Starter ~ right? Ever tried "whacking" the starter motor when it won't start (frees a stuck Bendix and reseats brushes sometimes)

How about the fender mounted solenoid? Replace that yet? Or, have you, at least, tied jumping it when it won't turn over?

 

[JustinOOO9]

I think there is some major confusion. A 7.3L does not have a stand pipe or an EGR... This all came in clear from a “ford diesel only place” or you checked them?

 

[GETFURIOUS]

AS STATED ABOVE.....

SO.....WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED JUMPING DIRECT TO THE STARTER FROM THE BATTERY?....WHAT HAPPENED?....

EVER TRIED HITTING THE STARTER WITH A HAMMER WHILE SOMEONE IS TURNING THE KEY?.....WHAT HAPPENED?....

EVER REMOVED THE STARTER AND HAD IT TESTED?.....OR TRIED A DIFFERENT STARTER FOR A FEW DAYS?.....WHAT HAPPENED?....

WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....AND YOU TURN THE KEY.....WHAT HAPPENS?....DO THE DASH LIGHTS GO DIM OR OUT?....DO THE HEADLIGHTS GO DIM OR OUT?....

WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....HAVE YOU TRIED TURNING ON THE HEADLIGHTS?....WERE THEY BRIGHT?....WHEN YOU TURNED THE KEY WHILE THE HEADLIGHTS WERE ON.....WHAT HAPPENED.....

ARE ALL ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS TIGHT AND IN GOOD SHAPE?....EVEN THE GROUND WIRES ON THE ENGINE BLOCK.....THE FIREWALL.....THE FENDERS.....AND THE FRAME?....

ARE ALL CONNECTIONS TO THE FUSE BLOCK / JUNCTION BOX UNDER THE HOOD TIGHT AND RUST FREE?....ARE ALL ALTERNATOR WIRES TIGHT AND RUST OR CORROSION FREE?....

HAVE YOU MADE ANY CHANGES OR ADDITIONS TO YOUR TRUCK RECENTLY?....JUST BEFORE THIS ISSUE STARTED?....

 

[whobub]

I think there is some major confusion. A 7.3L does not have a stand pipe or an EGR... This all came in clear from a “ford diesel only place” or you checked them?

Sorry for any confusion. I wanted to make sure I included all of the things I know that had been problems of diesel engines , past & present .

The repair place assured me they could find nothing that would cause the problem I am experiencing.

OK,,, but YOU haven't replaced the Starter ~ right? Ever tried "whacking" the starter motor when it won't start (frees a stuck Bendix and reseats brushes sometimes)

How about the fender mounted solenoid? Replace that yet? Or, have you, at least, tied jumping it when it won't turn over?

Correct--- have NOT replaced starter because it starts fine when cold.

Yes. I've beat the crap on the starter when hot/no-start acts up. I haven't tried anything with fender mount solenoid -- Although my truck is 20 years old I didn't think it had a Fender mounted solenoid.

Yes, tried jumping it...no love there. Besides, I know it's not a power management issue as it shows 12.4V at rest.

Even with a solenoid issue would I not hear at least power getting to it? I put my hand above the starter and it didn't even make as much as a buzz when the key was turned to start.

AS STATED ABOVE.....

SO.....WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....

HAVE YOU EVER TRIED JUMPING DIRECT TO THE STARTER FROM THE BATTERY?....WHAT HAPPENED?....

EVER TRIED HITTING THE STARTER WITH A HAMMER WHILE SOMEONE IS TURNING THE KEY?.....WHAT HAPPENED?....

EVER REMOVED THE STARTER AND HAD IT TESTED?.....OR TRIED A DIFFERENT STARTER FOR A FEW DAYS?.....WHAT HAPPENED?....

WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....AND YOU TURN THE KEY.....WHAT HAPPENS?....DO THE DASH LIGHTS GO DIM OR OUT?....DO THE HEADLIGHTS GO DIM OR OUT?....

WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....HAVE YOU TRIED TURNING ON THE HEADLIGHTS?....WERE THEY BRIGHT?....WHEN YOU TURNED THE KEY WHILE THE HEADLIGHTS WERE ON.....WHAT HAPPENED.....

ARE ALL ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS TIGHT AND IN GOOD SHAPE?....EVEN THE GROUND WIRES ON THE ENGINE BLOCK.....THE FIREWALL.....THE FENDERS.....AND THE FRAME?....

ARE ALL CONNECTIONS TO THE FUSE BLOCK / JUNCTION BOX UNDER THE HOOD TIGHT AND RUST FREE?....ARE ALL ALTERNATOR WIRES TIGHT AND RUST OR CORROSION FREE?....

HAVE YOU MADE ANY CHANGES OR ADDITIONS TO YOUR TRUCK RECENTLY?....JUST BEFORE THIS ISSUE STARTED?....

Thanks (I think) GETFURIOUS.

Why the screaming/ALL CAPS??

Thanks for taking the time to address these questions. You gave me lots of things to look at, but half of your questions were answered in my original post, but will cover them QxQ here...

Your question "HAVE YOU EVER TRIED JUMPING DIRECT TO THE STARTER FROM THE BATTERY?....WHAT HAPPENED?."

My answer: No

Your question "EVER TRIED HITTING THE STARTER WITH A HAMMER WHILE SOMEONE IS TURNING THE KEY?.....WHAT HAPPENED?...."

Answer: In my reply to 'NoRalPh' -- yes, beat the crap out of it. Nothing happened.

Your question "EVER REMOVED THE STARTER AND HAD IT TESTED?.....OR TRIED A DIFFERENT STARTER FOR A FEW DAYS?.....WHAT HAPPENED?."

Answer: No, have never removed starter. Had I done that & it seemed to work, I probably would not had to take up everyone's time with this post, & would have left the working one in!!

Your question "
WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....AND YOU TURN THE KEY.....WHAT HAPPENS?....DO THE DASH LIGHTS GO DIM OR OUT?....DO THE HEADLIGHTS GO DIM OR OUT?...."

Answer: As stated in original post, when hot, turn key, NOTHING happens to start sequence--no engagement to starter, no solenoid/dead battery clicks. All dash INDICATER lamps lights are on, non-dimming. The '99 model is a manual headlight/dash switch, so didn't try that yet. I don't normally turn my headlights on until engine starts. ave to get back to that one.

Your question "WHEN IT DOES NOT START.....HAVE YOU TRIED TURNING ON THE HEADLIGHTS?....WERE THEY BRIGHT?....WHEN YOU TURNED THE KEY WHILE THE HEADLIGHTS WERE ON.....WHAT HAPPENED....."

Answer: Same answer as one immediately above--need to try, have to get back to yo on that.

Your question "ARE ALL ELECTRICAL CONNECTIONS TIGHT AND IN GOOD SHAPE?....EVEN THE GROUND WIRES ON THE ENGINE BLOCK.....THE FIREWALL.....THE FENDERS.....AND THE FRAME?...."

Answer: You might be onto something here as I know dead batteries & grounds cause the most weird things. I'll have to try that & get back on that. However, WHY does it CONSISTENTLY work/start when cold or after a hot situation is allowed to cool down???

Your question "ARE ALL CONNECTIONS TO THE FUSE BLOCK / JUNCTION BOX UNDER THE HOOD TIGHT AND RUST FREE?....ARE ALL ALTERNATOR WIRES TIGHT AND RUST OR CORROSION FREE?...."

Answer: I'll have to work that into the q/a immediately above. Have not tried.

Your final question "HAVE YOU MADE ANY CHANGES OR ADDITIONS TO YOUR TRUCK RECENTLY?....JUST BEFORE THIS ISSUE STARTED?...."

Answer: No mods or changes

Thanks for taking the time to address these questions.

I'll get started tracing those grounds, headlights tests, etc. Would REALLY be interested to hear if this is similar to anyone else's issue--Ford is not unique in having similar problems on the same platform.

Thanks again folks!

 

[Hydro]

Lots to read above ...you say the fender solenoid does not click with the key or yes?
jumping that solenoid sends power down to the starter solenoid, but that is all
you can jump from the battery post on the starter to the small post - that should make the starter engage
if not, then jump the two large posts on the starter -- that bypasses all of the solenoids and switches

Be safe about it and -- neutral(park), brake set, all that safety stuff -- dont burn your fingers, there may be sparks
high chance the starter is on it's last legs and is giving fair warning it is gonna strand you -- the brushes do wear out with use

 

[whobub]

Yes sorry for all the reading on the previous post but I wanted to address GETFURIOUS' questions since he took so much time to post it, only fair. I have yet to try that to solenoids issue but I think you're right-- the brushes it are getting worn down -- it's got 200000+ miles on it so it might be worth looking at the starter--ANEVER been touched or replaced.

 

[guitarnut]

Can you hotwire the starter? See if it cranks when done manually and bypassing the pcm. You've replaced the starter solendoid on the passenger side fender area? Get a meter on that and see what happens when it does start and when it doesn't. It's a relay so it should activate something. I haven't done it but I'd imagine it's the same thing as doing a test on the GPR.

Edit: sorry I didn't see everyone else's posts asking this. Stupid Tapatalk app.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Hydro]

I have an old screwdriver ...well it used to drive screws .. LoL -- I use that to jump starters and solenoids, but a piece of wire would also work

 

[whobub]

Can you hotwire the starter? See if it cranks when done manually and bypassing the pcm. You've replaced the starter solendoid on the passenger side fender area? Get a meter on that and see what happens when it does start and when it doesn't. It's a relay so it should activate something. I haven't done it but I'd imagine it's the same thing as doing a test on the GPR.

Edit: sorry I didn't see everyone else's posts asking this. Stupid Tapatalk app.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Thanks GUITARNUT. You might have swung the jury on this as both NORALPH & GETFURIOUS alluded to the fender-mounted solenoid as the first suspect/place to check. But not sure what test to perform. To answer rest of your post..

No, haven't replaced anything (yet). I'm not familiar with acronym/abbreviations you're using though. What is PCM & GPR?

If I put a meter on the fender solenoid, what mode (volts, ramps, etc). Am I just looking for needle swing as in a continuity test or a voltage result?? I'm just confused as to what test I need & expected result (in either a normal start or when it's dead in the water).

Thanks again for the reply. It looks like the "jury" is finding that solenoid guilty, but I don't believe in part swapping-'gets expensive.

 

[NoRalPh]

Get your Jumper Cables out and connect just One side (either red or black from each side) and Bypass the solenoids Lg Posts to pass Full current through to the Starter motor.

So, when the starter won't react you know the "blockage" isn't that Switch because you're doing its job manually. Anytime you jump those two terminals the starter should crank.

 

[whobub]

Get your Jumper Cables out and connect just One side (either red or black from each side) and Bypass the solenoids Lg Posts to pass Full current through to the Starter motor.

So, when the starter won't react you know the "blockage" isn't that Switch because you're doing its job manually. Anytime you jump those two terminals the starter should crank.

Thanks NoRalPh--seems simple enough, even I can do that. I know it should work during cold, so can't wait to try when it's DOA hot.

 

[guitarnut]

Thanks GUITARNUT. You might have swung the jury on this as both NORALPH & GETFURIOUS alluded to the fender-mounted solenoid as the first suspect/place to check. But not sure what test to perform. To answer rest of your post..

No, haven't replaced anything (yet). I'm not familiar with acronym/abbreviations you're using though. What is PCM & GPR?

If I put a meter on the fender solenoid, what mode (volts, ramps, etc). Am I just looking for needle swing as in a continuity test or a voltage result?? I'm just confused as to what test I need & expected result (in either a normal start or when it's dead in the water).

Thanks again for the reply. It looks like the "jury" is finding that solenoid guilty, but I don't believe in part swapping-'gets expensive.

The starter solendoid on the fender isn't expensive to replace. Gpr is glow plug relay. They look alike because I replaced the starter solendoid thinking it was my gpr on my first powersmoke.

Powerstroke help recently showed how to jump the GPR and how to test it. Whilst I am not a mechanic I'd think a relay is a relay and would function similarly. Honestly, I'd just drop $20 and replace it if it's never been replaced.

When you key on the pcm (computer) will activate the relay which will send power to the starter. You can jump it with a screwdriver if you figure out what the different posts do. Watch the recent (within the last couple months) video of powerstroke help on YouTube. It'll be the only recent 7.3 video.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Hydro]

Um, ...post 6 talks about jumping the fender and starter solenoids

 

[whobub]

Yes--going with fender-mounted solenoid. Thanks again to HYDRO, GUITARNUT, NORALPH, GETFURIOUS, & any others I missed. Just so we're all on the same page, especially for other readers that run across these posts, wondering "huh?", I've provided a screenshot of the fender-mounted solenoid of ONE YouTube video I found (not sure if one you were talking about) link at bottom of THIS post. Bear with me here, want to document for all future readers, as well as myself.

Video showed jumping from:

1)the "S" post to the battery side of the solenoid
2) jumping directly from the battery side to starter side

I've written these labels on attachment. Where I am still confused as to which one should start in the event it is hot, but when I turned the Ignition it doesn't click the starter or the solenoid. Which terminal-jumping would show that it is failing in the HOT condition? If testing when COLD, which would indicate a failure IF it were HOT condition?

1) S-Post-to-battery: if this engages/starts vehicle, this is normal. Right?

OR

2) Battery--to-starter posts: If this engages the starter, is this a point of failure? If it does NOT engage starter, what are we seeing here? Solenoid bad or starter bad.

YouTube vid:

I'll try all this after work today. Thanks again for any/all input folks!

 

[guitarnut]

Yes--going with fender-mounted solenoid. Thanks again to HYDRO, GUITARNUT, NORALPH, GETFURIOUS, & any others I missed. Just so we're all on the same page, especially for other readers that run across these posts, wondering "huh?", I've provided a screenshot of the fender-mounted solenoid of ONE YouTube video I found (not sure if one you were talking about) link at bottom of THIS post. Bear with me here, want to document for all future readers, as well as myself.

Video showed jumping from:

1)the "S" post to the battery side of the solenoid
2) jumping directly from the battery side to starter side

I've written these labels on attachment. Where I am still confused as to which one should start in the event it is hot, but when I turned the Ignition it doesn't click the starter or the solenoid. Which terminal-jumping would show that it is failing in the HOT condition? If testing when COLD, which would indicate a failure IF it were HOT condition?

1) S-Post-to-battery: if this engages/starts vehicle, this is normal. Right?

OR

2) Battery--to-starter posts: If this engages the starter, is this a point of failure? If it does NOT engage starter, what are we seeing here? Solenoid bad or starter bad.

YouTube vid:

I'll try all this after work today. Thanks again for any/all input folks! View attachment 766506

So that fixed it?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[whobub]

No, not yet. My last post (#15) explained the approach & documenting for future readers. Your app (TapTalk) may not have uploaded post #15 yet?

 

[guitarnut]

No, not yet. My last post (#15) explained the approach & documenting for future readers. Your app (TapTalk) may not have uploaded post #15 yet?

Sorry. Tapatalk sucks and the images don't load half the time.

I would try to jumper it next time you are in a no start situation. If it cranks then it's not the starter or solenoid. At that point, I'd say the pcm isn't sending the signal to the solenoid. That's the quickest test to eliminate things. If it still doesn't crank then I'd take the starter and have it tested. It's only 3 bolts but it's heavy so don't drop it on your head like I almost did. I was having a similar problem on my 95 but it would crank. Turns out the starter was going bad

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[Hydro]

Just take an old screw driver and short the two large posts on that solenoid -- bypassing the solenoid switch
you can jump from the front post(battery) to the small post to activate that solenoid

 

[NoRalPh]

OK but,,, even if this works it doesn't mean you have a bad solenoid...

So first, the signal to that solenoid comes from the Key and thru the NSSW (Neutral Safety Switch), or a clutch sw if it's a Manual Trans.

So, testing there you're at the 1/2 way point and find either which "side" of it has the problem OR of the solenoid itself is the problem. If the starter cranks, then the Starter is OK. You next need to determine if that signal is coming to the solenoid from the KEY (and thru the NSSW) by checking for 12v at the "S" (signal) wire. And here this can go two ways,,, if the solenoid is bolted to metal with metal "feet" on it, suspect that the signal you're looking for is 12v Pos. BUT, sometimes that signal you're looking for is Ground (Neg) because internally the power is being supplied by the Batt side of the Big Lug (look for the solenoid to be bolted to Plastic with no path-to-Ground). If you confirm that there is Signal coming into the solenoid like it should them the solenoid itself must be bad. If you get no Signal then you have to trace-back to find where it's broken...

Just as General Info, this is on Starter Relays like this with only One "S" wire (somehow, you've got to get both + & - to them to make them work)