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6.0 Cylinder Walls Pitted

12524 Views 125 Replies 12 Participants Last post by  texasrange
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Here are some pictures of my cylinder walls. This is a March 2004 build date. Can this be saved inside the truck? I can for sure feel the pits. Thanks for looking

Turner
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To get more consistent torque, hold the wrench handle in a neutral position -- not pulling up or down as to make the pull. Divide the torque steps into manageable divisions -- no more than you can complete in a single fluid motion -- usually about 1/4 turn. When you preform a step, do it in one motion -- do not stop until the wrench clicks.

Good job on the pictures (y)
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I used a hybrid method.

Ford and many other companies use a Torque/Angle sequence, with or without TTY. Torque has a lot of scattering, and in the engineering world, it's typical for a factor of 15% variation to be expected in the tension, even with lubrication. Torque wrench accuracy is on top of that.

The biggest reason for using the angle method, you rotate a thread a certain amount of degrees, and the bolt is stretched how many threads have been advanced. There's no variation. You have a 1.0mm thread; 360º stretches 1.0mm. The exception is when there is a compressive element or inconsistency in flatness between the objects. And we have that with a gasket.

So the 6.0 procedure developed was to use torque to set the base or 'floor.' Torque as measurement will adjust for the bending and compression of components. When done at a lower compressive condition, the lower torque, the 15% deviation is not much of a factor.

Then you come at it with the heavy hitters, the angular stretching of the bolts, after you've set your floor.

So I set my floor following Ford's initial torque values, then did three steps to the ARP torque steps. What the ARP lube has going for it is the unique ability, more consistency than the standard oil because, from what I can tell, it does not allow the threads to get polished. And thread polishing not only affects reuse tension values but consistency fastener to fastener. Since torque is a measurement of movement force, frictional variation causes that 15% scatter.

With studs, you should have minimal tension loss due to twisting the fastener's shaft, as long as the threads have low friction. There is still some, but not like a bolt where the rotation is transmitted from the head, the shaft, and the threads. Eventually, that unwinds to some degree. If it's head rotation with a bolt, then no issue. If it's thread movement, it unwinds with a loss of tension.

So with the studs, it's essential to keep the rotating surfaces controlled, which should be the top threads, the nut face, and one washer face. So that's where my lube went to. You don't want the washer to become a bearing, so no lube between the washer and head if it's smooth. I had a discussion with ARP over this on our engines, and the guy really didn't know what our head surfaces were like, to say if the washer to rocker box should be lubed or not. Another example is that these are fastener experts but have no individual engine detailed experience. But he agreed if the stanchions through the 6.0s rocker boxes are smooth, there should be no ARP lube between the stanchion and washer.

Another variation in tension that occurs during fastening is the compression of asperities. That can be in the compressed objects: washers, nut faces, and threads. With critical fastening, a good procedure is to step away and let the recently tightened object sit for about 30 minutes before the last step. Thread asperities will be at both ends of the studs. Some talk about waiting hours or a day, but the engineering studies I found said 80-90% of any loss of tension occurring from this is during the 30 minutes after the step is complete. That might even be in Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design.

Even if you go back, loosen the assembly, and retighten by torque, you will not get back to the same point of asperity compression. So the last step is a wing-it. The non-rotating surfaces already have their crush, including that non-rotating washer.

I did the 30 minutes at the final step.
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I used a hybrid method.

Ford and many other companies use a Torque/Angle sequence, with or without TTY. Torque has a lot of scattering, and in the engineering world, it's typical for a factor of 15% variation to be expected in the tension, even with lubrication. Torque wrench accuracy is on top of that.

The biggest reason for using the angle method, you rotate a thread a certain amount of degrees, and the bolt is stretched how many threads have been advanced. There's no variation. You have a 1.0mm thread; 360º stretches 1.0mm. The exception is when there is a compressive element or inconsistency in flatness between the objects. And we have that with a gasket.

So the 6.0 procedure developed was to use torque to set the base or 'floor.' Torque as measurement will adjust for the bending and compression of components. When done at a lower compressive condition, the lower torque, the 15% deviation is not much of a factor.

Then you come at it with the heavy hitters, the angular stretching of the bolts, after you've set your floor.

So I set my floor following Ford's initial torque values, then did three steps to the ARP torque steps. What the ARP lube has going for it is the unique ability, more consistency than the standard oil because, from what I can tell, it does not allow the threads to get polished. And thread polishing not only affects reuse tension values but consistency fastener to fastener. Since torque is a measurement of movement force, frictional variation causes that 15% scatter.

With studs, you should have minimal tension loss due to twisting the fastener's shaft, as long as the threads have low friction. There is still some, but not like a bolt where the rotation is transmitted from the head, the shaft, and the threads. Eventually, that unwinds to some degree. If it's head rotation with a bolt, then no issue. If it's thread movement, it unwinds with a loss of tension.

So with the studs, it's essential to keep the rotating surfaces controlled, which should be the top threads, the nut face, and one washer face. So that's where my lube went to. You don't want the washer to become a bearing, so no lube between the washer and head if it's smooth. I had a discussion with ARP over this on our engines, and the guy really didn't know what our head surfaces were like, to say if the washer to rocker box should be lubed or not. Another example is that these are fastener experts but have no individual engine detailed experience. But he agreed if the stanchions through the 6.0s rocker boxes are smooth, there should be no ARP lube between the stanchion and washer.

Another variation in tension that occurs during fastening is the compression of asperities. That can be in the compressed objects: washers, nut faces, and threads. With critical fastening, a good procedure is to step away and let the recently tightened object sit for about 30 minutes before the last step. Thread asperities will be at both ends of the studs. Some talk about waiting hours or a day, but the engineering studies I found said 80-90% of any loss of tension occurring from this is during the 30 minutes after the step is complete. That might even be in Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design.

Even if you go back, loosen the assembly, and retighten by torque, you will not get back to the same point of asperity compression. So the last step is a wing-it. The non-rotating surfaces already have their crush, including that non-rotating washer.

I did the 30 minutes at the final step.
Well, while I’ve got you here can you clarify some things on stud installation? In terms of steps, you did 70 ft lbs, then 140 ft lbs, let it sit for 30 minutes, then 210 ft lbs, using all one motion for each step?

And then is marking the stud and/or nut a good practice too?


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I'm not telling anyone to do it the way I did it; it deviates from ARP.

First, I set my floor the same as the Ford procedure. Next, I index marked the nuts, studs, to the heads. Then I continued with the next two steps, to step 4 of 5. Waited the 30 min at a minimum and completed the last step, number 5. Finally, I checked that all the nuts rotated against the studs to the same degree, by the mark and by the torque/angle readout of my Snap-On Torque wrench.

Angular tensioning is more precise than torque, TTY or not; 5% vs 15%. The ARP lube is supposed to bring torque to that level, so part of my work for the videos was to doc if that was true. It pretty much is. However, the concern I have of it is that since it has the ability to lube well and prevent thread polishing, lowering the torque necessary to stretch a fastener (otherwise we may be torquing to 260lbft, also means it has the potential to allow for nuts/bolts to back off, because of the lower friction. Many times when backing off bolts or nuts you hear a POP. That's the release of static friction to moving, dynamic friction. But it doesn't mean that a fastener never backed off. You can't judge a fastener like that, just as you can't audit a fastener by reloading the torque wrench to see if it moves again. If it does, then both the static and dynamic friction became lower than how it was first rotated to. But it still can be lower, it's just that static friction is typically always higher than dynamic, so you'll never see that loss.

The rest, you'll have to wait until I can recover 1TB of Powerstroke images and videos off my contentious MAC #1. If it doesn't end in the trash.

Although I have a few things on MAC #2. And I can overthink things.

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The question was asked about marking -- Yes, always mark the nut and washer -- too easy to miss one if you get distracted -- and pick a direction, make the marks all the same -- I use a dot for initial steps, and the line after that
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Looking good so far! Sorry I was late to the party on this thread. Glad to see it being brought back to life. Is that the oil cooler relocation kit from BPD or is this the one that uses the more traditional air over oil cooler.
Thanks. It's their adapter plate. For custom setups. I plan on using a fluidyne oil cooler and a different filter setup from what they use.
I made sure each spec was reached during the movement of the wrench and not at the end. All the nuts are still on the same place today. I'll post the progress pics soon.
I went with holders diesel injectors. 175/30. They are the premiums. Odawg sr3 intake. Some of my valve cover bolt holes were stripped out on one side. Longer bolts I had on hand solved the issue. Went deeper to where good threads were. Got the oil feed and return fittings into the adapter plate before the intake because they are directly underneath it. Just need to get the turbo feed line outlet on and plug the other aux. Have the parts, just didn't put em on yet. I also bought the hype and went with the hhc nipple cups. We shall see how they do. I'm expecting this high pressure oil system to be very tight. New stand pipes and dummy plugs also installed.
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I hooked air to the ipr. 90 psi. Held for 5 minutes. Now it's leaking. Sound is coming from passenger side. Like an injector or the stand pipe. Drivers side is quiet. Dang I'm not sure how much I should be concerned. It doesn't leak very fast. Builds pressure well. Found it to be an injector. Leak noise followed it when I moved 2 around
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Injector spools can sometimes leak on new injector -- kinda depends on where the control spool is parked -- they do not have anything that controls where the spool stops, except the FICM -- it places the spool in the closed position -- but new injectors or injectors that have been laid on their side may have the spool located in any postion -- open, closed, or part way between
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That's what my brother in law was thinking. It's definitely leaking through the injector and not at a seal. Here are the pics for today. Wire harness, exhaust manifolds, fuel lines front and rear, new lift plate. I also put about 4 layers of killmat under the firewall insulation this morning. We did open up the front of the truck for the install. Lot heavier than just the shortblock was. Great to have it in the truck but plenty more to go. Wish I would have taken pictures when I did the gear swaps. I'll see if I did and post them. Went to a 4.56 in both axles.
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Good job!
What is the advantage of the Odawg intake?
To come back to the bolts: we always read about different installation versions for the bolts. Some turn them slightly oiled to the bottom of the threaded hole, some turn them back half a turn, some glue them in. How did you install the bolts?
From my point of view, they should be screwed in to the bottom of the thread so that the bolt cannot turn when the nut is tightened.
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Studs, typo. I'll throw my 2¢.

Me, one-half turn up from the bottom. If they do turn, bottomed, there will be additional upward pressure on the threads, additive to the upward force of the force that exists from tensioning. The force can change from finger tight to the loading you sometimes see when someone runs them home with an impact gun, even with a light trigger.

When I installed mine, I marked the studs to tell if they would turn. During the initial torque sequence, they can, even if bottomed, there some rotation. Once you get the first step of tension on the studs, they do not rotate; the frictional value of the threads keeps them in place. But I also used engine oil on the lower coarse threads rather than ARP lube to make sure those lower threads did have more friction than ARP lube would provide. Engine oil still protects from the static galling (asperity contact and welding under pressure) from cyclic loads that ARP warns of. They also have no issue if you want to use Loctite, as long as you preload the fasteners thoroughly before the Loctite has cured. If it has cured, it gets crushed during later tensioning.

Coarse threads are more prone to movement, including backing off, due to the higher thread angle. Another reason I did not want ARP lube on the lower threads and initially considered Loctiting them.
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You are of course correct Jack, I meant studs, not bolts. I had not been able to track whether you had used studs or bolts on your engine. I had always understood you to see more advantages in the stock TTY bolts.
If I understand you correctly, this would be the optimal approach:
1. clean the threads in the block and screw the studs into the block lightly oiled.
2. turn the studs back half a turn and mark them.
3. place the washer dry on the valve housing
4. coat the thread of the nut and the contact surface of the nut with ARP lubricant.
5. tighten nuts according to spec.
Easy typo; I do it all the time.

Correct, that's my methodology. Right or wrong.

I have no problems with using the stock TTY bolts. Theoretically, TTY has some advantages; ARP says their torque value is just slightly above stock (testing with a load cell but not with gasket compression), and I'd love to get a labs test on the stock bolts. It still would not be with a gasket sandwich. Considering you can buy stock bolts for a fraction of their value and cost of ARP studs, it could be the bargain of the century.

I went with ARP studs for two reasons. First, if I get run over when getting the mail, my wife would have difficulty getting the value of the work done on the engine due to the bashing of "it ain't got studs" in the marketplace. Second, examining the bolts that came out of my engine, like everything else with this reman, they did not clean the internal threads in the block when they bolted up the engine. There are signs in the bolt threads of pitting, debris embedding into the surfaces. So the block threads are compromised to some degree. Considering when using bolts, these threads, for at least the third time, would go through the stress of rotational friction, I did not want to expose them to that. In my cautious nature, I'm thinking of more asperities (tension loss) and possible stress cracks in the threads, weakening the attachment.

I had a long talk with an engineer at one test lab, and he thought I was right that the stock head bolts are 11.8 grade. He also thought my presumption of these bolts' preload (clamping force) might be low, as I used the minimum spec values for 11.8-grade bolts. He said in critical applications; it is rare for a fastener manufacturer to supply bolts at the minimum value. And my presumption from engineering literature of TTL at 25% above the yield value is educationally correct, but in application often higher than that.

There's a reason engine manufacturers have moved to the design of TTY fastening across a wide range. TTY is not a cheap nor weight-saving solution as its ofter portrayed.
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Good job!
What is the advantage of the Odawg intake?
Well it's big and has a smoother path for the air. But what I really appreciated is that is eliminated hot coolant from running through a passageway on the intake.
To come back to the bolts: we always read about different installation versions for the bolts. Some turn them slightly oiled to the bottom of the threaded hole, some turn them back half a turn, some glue them in. How did you install the bolts?
From my point of view, they should be screwed in to the bottom of the thread so that the bolt cannot turn when the nut is tightened.
I bottomed them out with an impact on lowest setting, reversed them out and then hand tightened them. Studs I SOAKED in arp lube and tightened per their spec.
Seemed like the way to go. Made the most sense out of all the options. I wasnt about to take a stone to it. 3m has a new type of sand paper that has a grippy backing to it so that along with the lapping plate grit held without issue. I'm 27 and in very good shape. My back hurts like hell.
This is helping motivate me to finally get my head job done. Just waiting for the ankle to heal after a surgery. I have kdd heads sitting there waiting for me to get to work. This step (cleaning and prepping the block) is the one that worries me the most since it seems super critical for a successful job. Would you mind elaborating more on your process for prepping the heads? What type of sandpaper? How you stuck it to the plate? You bought a lapping plate, or was able to rent one somewhere (a cursory look at these looks like they are pricey)? How would you recommend keeping crud out of everything? How do you determine when it's enough? Any other tips or things to consider?

On the flip side, I've seen some use stone, seemingly without 'flattening' it first (@FordDoctor videos?) and it's seemed to work fine for them. Ficm repair sells a stone and rents a lapping plate to true it up before using. Any strong feeling about this method? Why did you choose paper over stone?
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