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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Everyone - Can really use some kind input help with my No start hot condition and WTS start not working - but works engine cold
Looked everywhere for similar situation - but nothing
Many thanks for anyones help!!!

2001 Ford F-350 - 7.3 - 2WD - Automatic - 215,000 miles

Broad Strokes
  • Engine Cold - Wait to Start Light comes on normal (8 sec or so)
  • GPR on the small post - Red Wire - 12.6 Volts energized - Power to the larger termanal energizes the GPs - Truck fires right up
  • Engine runs good - Engine heats up - I turn off engine - Try to restart - Long crank - No Start - No WTS light - Maybe a blip of light every 30 tries of key
  • GPR small red wire terminal - No voltage or mini volts up to 1 to 2 volts sometimes - No WTS light -
  • Engine cools down to 120 degrees or so - wait - 30 min or so - WTS lights up - GPR hits 12.6 volts - Engine Starts normal
  • This issue is extremely repeatable - I've done it more times than I can count

What is working
  • PCM - I have two - One chipped - one for smog - Cali Truck emissions - No Start hot same with both PCMs - Baro sensor inside PCM - They both can't be bad?
  • NO Codes
  • IPR - IPC - 550 to 650 PSI - Duty Cycle at 12% start - warm 8% - at idle and climbs normal when driving - at least it looks normal to me - Smooth - No fluctuations - No Oil Leaks?
  • Map Sensor no codes
  • Brand New Oil Temp Sensor -Purple wire Continuity from OTS to GPR small ground terminal
  • Checked engine Intake for air leaks with my Smoke Machine - No leaks
  • New Oil and Filters
  • I don't have a fuel pressure gauge but checked fuel pump - Sounds healthy - Fuel Bowl Clean - Energized ignition open bowl - Fuel Pump filled up bowl real fast - It runs fine
  • Batteries are good and match each other - 12.6 Volts and engine cranks fast
  • 30 Amp fuse under dash intact - Haven't checked my fuel heater - I'm assuming it works - I heard it might have something to do with GPR? IDK?
  • Cold engine - Voltage drop across main GP large leads on GPR - can't remember - 10.9 Volts? Somewhere in there?
  • Hopefully I didn't leave out anything
  • Checked my GPR with my Power Prob manually - Thunk and Voltage on the big leads - works

Where I'm beating my head to pieces
  • Faulty GP Control Module without Codes? I really don't understand the programming and when GPCM stops the GPs regarding engine temp
  • Oil Temp Sensor (new) is cutting off the purple wire ground to small GPR relay like a switch? - Or does the ground happen inside the PCM? IDK?
  • Issue - Out of the wiring harness near the GPR wire loom is a Red/Yellow Wire with a large eyelet - Not hooked up - it was spliced - Not by me - electrical taped up - cramed near the aircon pump
  • Looked everywhere for what the Red/Yellow wire at the GPR was - best I got was - Contactor Low Current Sense Return - what the hell is that and where does it go and connect?
  • Question - Does the GPs not work after the Oil temp sensor is hot - and engine relys souly on engine heat to start - without glow plugs? - That doesn't make sense - engine wear

That's all I got - I'm out of ideas - I don't know where to go next
Any help and direction would be massively appreciated
Thank you
The Ryman
 

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The glow plugs should not be a factor of it not starting when it’s warm. No I don’t know exactly how these trucks are programmed, what you’re describing and glow plug function is exactly what I would expect it to do.

I think I would look elsewhere for a solution.
 

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JGK's right on-the-Money here, this has nothing to do with the GlowPlugs...

Typically what we see, in a "No Hot Restart", is a problem with the HiPres Oil system not being able to meet the PCMs pressure requirements for starting. All kinds of things change as the engine gets Hot. Oil thins, rubber O-Rings soften, metal parts swell and stick and it all works, marginally, when Cold. The first signs of any of that failing are often with a hot engine (not to mention 20yrs and 200K mi ;))

My Usual Scanner Advice;

If you're gonna keep & maintain the truck yourself I strongly suggest you get access to the special scanner software you need to do it.

To retrieve most of the codes you'll need to help and even do some testing look at the FORscan Lite or TorqueApp (you add an Android device and Blue Tooth Adapter for @ $30) OR the Windoze version with a USB adapter. I like this one for BT Android -> http://www.amazon.com/BAFX-Products-34t5-Bluetooth-Android/dp/B005NLQAHS/

Just a few years ago you needed to buy a professional scan tool because our trucks need to have a scanner with a Library containing both the Ford Proprietary AND the Diesel Specific codes in it. Add to that, our trucks are Not, specifically, OBD-II so the Generic scanners the Auto Parts Stores have are of little use to us. But today there are some very good App based tools, that are close to what the pro tools do, for fraction of the cost.


Get yourself set up and monitor these 4 important parameters when Cold and compare them to when it's Hot and not restarting...

1) ICP pressure (in psi plz)
2) IPR %
3) Cranking RPM
4) Cranking Voltage

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Edit; I thought you Had a WTS (for some reason, your post is so full of, irrelevant, GPR stuff I missed it I guess ;)) but now notice that, as it gets Hot you Lose that WTS? Is that right?

Does the WTS just fail to come back On once you've shut it off and the go to restart? OR, does it start fine Cold, with a WTS, and then get Hot, Die, and the WTS is then gone?

This is sounding like what's going on is that a sensor is heating up and shorting and thereby drawing-down the 5v reference line and causing the PCM to be unable to boot-up but, I would think that it would kill a running engine when that happened, maybe not though, and I'm not sure that's what you're seeing....
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks NoRalfPh for any consideration - ok
I made a video of the situation but it's taking a while to load - I'll post video soon
Yes - as engine heats up - I lose my WTS - When Engine Cold - WTS lights up and truck fires up
You speak about a sensor heating up and shorting - thereby drawing down the 5v Reference - That would skew every sensor - cause run ability issues
I'll have to check that - I would hope the PCM would throw a low voltage code and I got nothing
Just the repeatable non-start condition when the WTS doesn't light up only engine hot
BTW - As JGK said - thow cold water on IPR - did not resolve no-start condition hot
I'll post video in a little bit
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hello again,
Ok - below is the video
Got the Torques Pro App going - able to see numbers - IPR got up to 2,600+ at half throttle - duty cycle at 8.9% idle
I did have almost a stall this morning - Engine just cut out - engine rpms dropped - then caught it - throttled out of it
BTW - at the end of the video is a no-start with fast cranking - the tach is not moving at all??? - Crank Sensor??? - would that shut off a WTS light?
I know it would cause a no-start
The numbers on the code reader looked good - right?
But like clockwork - no WTS = no start -
This clockwork intermittency - has to be electrical - idk - maybe not - any suggestions???
Thanks in advance!!!

Copy and Paste Link
 

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Ok, let me comment as I watch.

So first, TorqueApp killing the engine isn't uncommon.

Those HiPres Oil values (ICP & IPR) are more significant before it starts, I know, it happens Fast! Easier when it doesn't start ;)

Next, you have an Early '01 (your Cluster has no Trans Temp Gauge and a "regular" Odometer so that means you SHOULD show cranking RPM on the tach - @150rpm) BUT,,,, when it doesn't start, see if TorqueApp sees cranking rpm (is yours an Aftermarket CPS? We Don't use those!)

OK! Hot no start and NO RPM,, the PCM will Not signal the IDM to fire the injectors unless it sees a minimum of 100rpm (see if you can confirm that the App shows "0" rpm). I don't think this is about a bad CPS but rather just a sign that the PCM isn't running so there's nothing to drive the Tach.

The PCM also has a pressure threshold for ICP pressure before it will start (@500psi) and, what you Should have done,,, was watch those 4 things when it wasn't starting. Although if the PCM isn't running you're not going to be able to get those values anyway...

The next thing to try, when it's hot and you have no WTS, go and unplug the 42-pin connector to the engine to disconnect All sensors (big square block over the dr side valvecover). Then, just turn the Key on and see if that alone gets you a WTS (plug it back in to confirm that the WTS goes away again) If that happens then you might unplug the EBPS sensor alone after plugging the 42-pin back in, has the same result and the WTS returns with no EBPS connected.
 

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@NoRalPh Will this year model crank if the PCM does not power up ? -- That 'red wire" on the glow plug relay that the OP mentioned gets power from the PCM relay -- possible a problem with power at that relay ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thank you so much for watching my video!!! - that was a pain - - - ... Appreciate it!!
Further - I just checked my 5Volt reference and had 5.01Volts to 5.02 Volt -
That was with engine cold - I haven't done it yet with engine hot - will check

Torque App was hard to see engine start because it wants to kill the engine - will figure out method or solution to see engine start so I can observe data
But the problem still remains - No WTS - No fire up
I am thinking more about the computer not being booted up completely
If the IDM needs to see 100rpms to time the engine and start the injectors - honestly - that's exactly what it sounds like - with the NO-Tach at cranking
Absolutely no fuel - Not a pop - a catch - nothing - just cranks - at least the cranking is smooth and fast

Yes - dummy me is using an aftermarket CPS
I will remedy that -

Regarding the PCM isn't running - I keep losing connection with the PCM with KOEO - Warm up - No communication with Torque App
I have to double check this - I might be losing connection because the PCM is turning off or not having a full boot-up.
Question - Once the PCM comes on - is it supposed to stay on? - that makes sense to me - Wait for crank - 100rpms - IDM jumps in? - Or does it have a programmed time out? 1 minute? or so?

Pin-42 fuse over driver wheel - Had no idea you can disconnect all the sensors - that's going to be interesting - To see if the WTS lights up -Plug back in to see it go away
I'll move on to the Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor after that with 42-Pin fuse back in to see if the WTS pops back up
I will do that tomorrow
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hello Hydro
Thanks for chiming in
There is an issue I brought up at the beginning of the post
I have a derelict red and yellow wire - not connected coming out of the GPR end of the wiring harness -
I don't have a wiring diagram - can't find one - Cali emissions truck with GPCM
Have no idea it's purpose
Yes regarding the red wire to the GPR - it does NOT receive 12Volts when the WTS does not light up
Question - Is that always supposed to recieve 12Volts regardless of the engine temp - always be on KeyON? and let the PCM choose to ground other small terminal via Oil Temp Sensor?
I do not know regarding the PCM lighting up the starting circuit to via a relay - don't know that one
If anyone has a wiring diagram - sure would appreciate that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
BTW - I've owned this truck for over 15 years
She's ran like a champ - no issues
I've had women come and go
Family is - well family
But my F-350 is the most reliable thing in my life - more reliable than I myself
Seen me to good and bad times
Because it has given me no troubles - I really don't know anything about it the 7.3 - other than basic maintenance
Learning as I go
Thanks to anyone's help is getting this girl back up
 

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So first, yea, the engine will "crank" (that is, On-the-Starter) without the PCM running.

For clarification, the PCM needs to "see" a threshold for a couple of things before it will start the engine (without meeting these thresholds, it doesn't send the signal, that the IDM is waiting to see, before it will fire the injectors). These are;

@500psi from the ICP sensor
Cranking Voltage above 10v (in 99's to early '01's like yours) and above 9v (in later '01's to 03's)
Cranking RPM above 100rpm

BUT,,, if the PCM isn't running (as evidenced by a lack of that WTS light) you get;

No Tach signal
No GPR activation
No Fuel Pump activation
No communication with the OBDII port ~ the PCM can't do any of that when it's not running...

Also, during that 2001 production run, the electrics went through a major upgrade (no GEM, no starter solenoid on the fenderwell, and a bunch of, less obvious, changes) and all you have to do is to look at the Instrument Cluster to tell the difference (that Trans Temp Gauge and Digital OD means it has the upgrade). So,,, there Are no 2001 wiring schematics you can rely on. Use 2000 diagrams for early trucks (like yours) and 2002 for upgraded trucks.

I don't see this as being a, strictly, wiring issue though because it's so predictably related to Heat. My best guess is that this is a Sensor killing the PCM (what I'm not clear about is that it's not killing a running hot engine but rather preventing the initial, hot, restart Only).

The PRIMARY issue has to do with the PCM not running, none of those other issues are going to come into play before that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Apologies for the delay
Ok- Got some news here
Not important at this point - but cranking starting HPOP at 800psi+spike
But - with engine HOT - no WTS light - I think more importantly - NO TACH
Removed 42-Pin - WTS came right back on
Replaced 42-Pin - WTS went off
Ok then - I see it is a forward problem through engine wiring harness or sensors
I then pulled the ExhaustGasPS. with the 42-Pin connected - WTS did NOT come back on
Ok then
I figured - Pull every pigtail from each sensor to see if I can isolate
One at a time cycling Key - No joy - couldn't get the WTS to light up
Made sure all was plugged in - and waited
Then the WTS came on when engine was HOT - What the hell did I do to get that
Crank -Tach movement - Fire right up - I'm on to something
I did this at the grocery store parking lot by the way
Drove home
Pulled every sensor pig tail again - checked for obvious where through - short to ground - short to Hot
Cleaned every sensor and pigtail with electrical cleaner
Plugged back in - engine fired right up HOT - it worked
Now - there was no aaahaaaa moment - and that really sucks
I have no idea where the problem really is????
But I know this - NO TACH = NO Start
My conclusion is this - one of two things - maybe 3
The wiring harness is 20+ years old - the sensors are old - minus the new ones - CPS - IRP - ICP
Further - I know dirt plus grease and oil and debris is conductive - that can cause a short to ground or power
Me adjusting the wiring harness and cleaning all pigtails may have solved the problems in the short term - BUT
I don't think I out of the hole just yet - may return - it's a 20 year old wiring harness - and there's other old sensors
Whatever the case
I'll take a breather from this -
215,000 miles on my truck and 20 plus years
Time for a new wiring harness
Injector O-Rings - and new cups
And maybe just finish changing all my sensors to eliminate the one that may be causing the problem without a clean diagnosis
I'll do so test driving tomorrow to confirm my current results - I'll let you know my progress
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For being there
 

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High possibility there is a bare spot on the harness and you moving the harness, temp fixed the short
Really would do to look for contact spots and tape them up -- Tesa tape works well for this
Don't want the problem to come back and strand you in someplace you don't want
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
That big 42-Pin is known to have that wear through on the valve cover - I've inspected and saw nothing obvious
Taped it up anyways -
The problem was still persisted with the HOT start issue
Something is going on - but I dropped a lot of balls in my life going doing the diagnostics - I really need to clean my house!
I agree with you - if I pull that wiring harness - I'm replacing it
 

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Glad you've made progress, wish I had seen your exact symptoms and could point you to an answer, you're kinda on-your-own from here on... :)

Coupla things though, there is no distinguishment between "no WTS and no Tach", they're the same thing as the Tach needs the PCM to work and no WTS means no PCM.

Oil in connectors is Not a problem. Oil in a connection actually benefits that connection by keeping corrosion away (all your injector connections are flooded with oil under the valvecovers).

It can't be just "any sensor" that would do this to you, it's the 3-wire sensors you have to look at as being suspect. But it can also be any of the wires, their entire length, going to them. A chafe point that is So Closely associated with temperature is the real mystery here ~ hehehe
 

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Hello Everyone - Can really use some kind input help with my No start hot condition and WTS start not working - but works engine cold
Looked everywhere for similar situation - but nothing
Many thanks for anyones help!!!

2001 Ford F-350 - 7.3 - 2WD - Automatic - 215,000 miles

Broad Strokes
  • Engine Cold - Wait to Start Light comes on normal (8 sec or so)
  • GPR on the small post - Red Wire - 12.6 Volts energized - Power to the larger termanal energizes the GPs - Truck fires right up
  • Engine runs good - Engine heats up - I turn off engine - Try to restart - Long crank - No Start - No WTS light - Maybe a blip of light every 30 tries of key
  • GPR small red wire terminal - No voltage or mini volts up to 1 to 2 volts sometimes - No WTS light -
  • Engine cools down to 120 degrees or so - wait - 30 min or so - WTS lights up - GPR hits 12.6 volts - Engine Starts normal
  • This issue is extremely repeatable - I've done it more times than I can count

What is working
  • PCM - I have two - One chipped - one for smog - Cali Truck emissions - No Start hot same with both PCMs - Baro sensor inside PCM - They both can't be bad?
  • NO Codes
  • IPR - IPC - 550 to 650 PSI - Duty Cycle at 12% start - warm 8% - at idle and climbs normal when driving - at least it looks normal to me - Smooth - No fluctuations - No Oil Leaks?
  • Map Sensor no codes
  • Brand New Oil Temp Sensor -Purple wire Continuity from OTS to GPR small ground terminal
  • Checked engine Intake for air leaks with my Smoke Machine - No leaks
  • New Oil and Filters
  • I don't have a fuel pressure gauge but checked fuel pump - Sounds healthy - Fuel Bowl Clean - Energized ignition open bowl - Fuel Pump filled up bowl real fast - It runs fine
  • Batteries are good and match each other - 12.6 Volts and engine cranks fast
  • 30 Amp fuse under dash intact - Haven't checked my fuel heater - I'm assuming it works - I heard it might have something to do with GPR? IDK?
  • Cold engine - Voltage drop across main GP large leads on GPR - can't remember - 10.9 Volts? Somewhere in there?
  • Hopefully I didn't leave out anything
  • Checked my GPR with my Power Prob manually - Thunk and Voltage on the big leads - works

Where I'm beating my head to pieces
  • Faulty GP Control Module without Codes? I really don't understand the programming and when GPCM stops the GPs regarding engine temp
  • Oil Temp Sensor (new) is cutting off the purple wire ground to small GPR relay like a switch? - Or does the ground happen inside the PCM? IDK?
  • Issue - Out of the wiring harness near the GPR wire loom is a Red/Yellow Wire with a large eyelet - Not hooked up - it was spliced - Not by me - electrical taped up - cramed near the aircon pump
  • Looked everywhere for what the Red/Yellow wire at the GPR was - best I got was - Contactor Low Current Sense Return - what the hell is that and where does it go and connect?
  • Question - Does the GPs not work after the Oil temp sensor is hot - and engine relys souly on engine heat to start - without glow plugs? - That doesn't make sense - engine wear

That's all I got - I'm out of ideas - I don't know where to go next
Any help and direction would be massively appreciated
Thank you
The Ryman
Replace the wire harness on the motor fixed a lot of problems got a motocraft original part for Tasca parts .com. Fit like a glove and cheaper than from for. You give them your vin. Number so they can match it perfectly.
 
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