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13 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Originally Posted by powerstarved View Post
I have found the problem went back and started testing fuses again but testing ohms resistance found fuse 22 to show as being good carring voltage but with to much resistance changed it and shes alive.These trucks sure are picky about there 12 v power. Found this 50 min after ordering a new pcm so if any one needs I got a spare vdh2 for sale.

I'm having the same problem as the original poster. My number 22 was blown, I replaced it, the dash lights work normally now but I still have a no start problem.
My problem started after I replaced the the #8 injector, all glow plugs and gaskets. Truck started great, drove it a couple of days and then replaced the glow plug solenoid. When changing out the solenoid I grounded out one or the other small terminals on the solenoid. This caused the IDM relay to buzz and a no start. I found this thread with the same no start problem but replacing my blown #22 fuse did not fix my no start.

Last night I plugged my tuner in and the camshaft sensor pulled a code. I replaced it and the same code still pulled plus I now have a PCM code, truck will still not start. Any ideas?


Premium Member
8,333 Posts
So first, realize that the trucks fuse positions have changed over the years and #22 in your truck might not be #22 in that other post (22 in older trucks is the same as 30 in your '02 and it's the most common blown fuse, from a fuel heater element, that causes a no start).

Next, the only code you show that would concern me now is the 340 (that PCM code is something to be ignored most times, especially with a tuner). Can your tuner give you an RPM reading?

If so, make sure you see Cranking RPM as you try to start.

If not, you need to get a simple App that will allow you to monitor your sensors if your going to maintain your truck yourself.

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
My tuner does show engine RPM when running. While cranking the engine now, it does not show any RPM
I just installed a new CPS from Ford, still won't start and no RPM reading on my tuner when cranking

Premium Member
8,333 Posts
So, your PCM isn't seeing any signal from the CPS (that P0340) or you would see RPM even on just the Starter. That's a problem as one of the PCM's requirement for starting is detecting above 100 RPM. It will never start until it sees that.

You say it's a new CPS? (I hope it would be either a Ford or IH sensor as aftermarket ones have been problematic) then the next place to examine would be its plug and wiring maybe.

Not sure how this would all relate to a arced wire on the GP relay though....

Have you looked at the fuseible link under the airbox?

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I purchased a CPS sensor from Autozone yesterday, installed it, then read online it probably won't work. I went to Ford over lunch and got one from the dealership, the Ford CPS is currently installed for my tests tonight. I'll pull the airbox and report back

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
That all checks out good. I was happy to see even though it was corroded the nut was brass/copper. Cleaned up great, no problems.
I re-read your #5 post about arcing the GPR not mattering and also re-read your #3 post about fuse #22 being the fuel heater. I think we need to re-visit this.
My 2002 owners guide has fuse #22 (page 199) corresponding to Engine Control (page 200) 20amp. When I grounded out one or the other small terminals on the GP relay, relay #303 under that dash started buzzing crazy. I think relay #303 is for the Injector Drive Module. I did the search on this forum and found the original poster with the same problem. I found that the #22 fuse was blown when I grounded the GPR, and a new fuse caused relay #303 to stop buzzing. From that point on, the truck won't start.

Premium Member
8,333 Posts
So sure, let's start with the basics -

My usual No Start -

WTS Light? - do you get it when you first roll-on the key? (shows the computer is running)

Do you have a spare CPS to try?

Is there fuel in the fuel bowl now? Does it refill after cranking? (open the drain lever to check) Look above the pass ft tire, you'll see a 3/8" metal tube, against the motor that ends there, it's the drain for the bowl (yellow lever you slide to the side). Get a cup, open the lever, drain the fuel bowl, look at the fuel, close the lever. Then, turn the key to the ON position (should hear the pump) for 15 secs. Drain the fuel bowl again, whaddya got?

Can you hear/feel the pump running (below the dr seat, against the framerail)

Could the fuel gauge be giving a bad reading? (Below 1/4 tank?)

Is it cranking fast enough? - it won't even TRY to start if cranking too slowly.

Is your truck "chipped"? If so, remove it as a Test.

You can unplug the ICP sensor, as a Test, so the PCM sets a default value for the IPR to run on (expect this to set a new "Low ICP" code, don't let that misdirect you after a scan).

Did you check the plug and sheet metal nut going to the IPR? That nut can vibrate off and allow the solenoid going over the valve to slide around. The wires going to the IPR can get brittle, crack, and short together. Make sure the plug & wires look in good shape.

NEXT, think of the PCMs requirements for starting;

1) ICP over @500psi
2) RPM over 100
3) Cranking Voltage above 9v (in an '02 - earlier trucks have higher requirements)

If you can, monitor all this with your tuner while cranking.

Additionally, the IPR% will tell you much about the health of the HiPres Oil system.

Voltage too is going to be very important, if it drops too low the PCM may "drop-out" and not be able to read CPS signal.

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Your reply made me laugh at myself, I'll spend tomorrow at work googling all the Ford sensor acronyms you've laid out. I put the truck on charge for the evening so I can run down your list tomorrow evening. Thank you for the direction, much appreciated.

Premium Member
8,333 Posts
You have to forgive us.... ;)

Imagine typing "Powertrain Control Module - Injection Control Pressure and Injection Pressure Regulator" every time we referred to the PCM - ICP - IPR. It would take a LOT more typing!

2x4 Two Wheel Drive
4r100 Automatic Transmission 4 Super Duty Trucks with a 7.3
4x2 Two Wheel Drive
4x4 Four Wheel Drive
4X4L Four by Four Low
ABS Antilock Braking System
AC Air Conditioning
ACC Accessory Position of ignition key
ACC Air Conditioning Clutch
AIC Auxiliary Idle Control (see APCM)
AP Accelerator Pedal position sensor Load/demand input; PCM uses this to determine mass fuel desired, adjusts fuel delivery through IPR duty cycle and fuel pulse width and injection timing; 5 volts in, 0.5-0.7 volts at idle, 4.5 volts at WOT. PID: AP
APCM Auxiliary Powertrain Control Module(FORD's name for AIC)
API American Petroleum Institute
APP is acelerater pedal position
APS Accelerator Position Sensor
ATF Automatic Transmission Fluid
BARO: Barometric pressure sensor Strategy input; PCM uses this to adjust fuel quantity and injection timing for optimum running and minimum smoke, also glow plug on time to aid starting at higher altitudes; 5 volts in, @4.6 volts/14.7 psi at sea level, decreasing as altitude increases. PID: BARO (pressure)
BOO Brake On/Off
CAC is Charge air cooler. A CAC tube is either tube that runs from the intercooler to the motor (see IC also)
CC Crew Cab (4 door)
CCV: CrankCase Vent
CDR Crankcase Depression Regulator
CLV Calculated Load Valve
CMP or CPS (cmp is the dealer term, cps is the forum term for some reason) is Camshaft position sensor
CMP: CaMshaft Position sensor Strategy and load input; PCM uses this to monitor engine speed to determine engine state and load, and cylinder position in order to control timing and fuel delivery; Hall Effect sensor which generates a digital voltage signal; high, 12 volts, low, 1.5 volts. PID: RPM
CPS Cam Positioning Sensor
Degas bottle is the coolant bottle on a 7.3 or 6.0 where the radiator cap is on the bottle and not the radiator
DI Direct Injection
DLC Data Link Connector(OBD connection)
DMM Digital Multi-Meter
DRL Daytime Running Lights
DRW Dual Rear Wheels, dually, Dooley
DTC Diagnostic Trouble Code(usually P-xxx/xxxx)
DVOM/DVM Digital Volt-Ohm Meter/Digital Volt Meter
E4OD auto tranny on pre-'99 Ford heavy pickups
EB Exhaust Brake
EBP: Exhaust BackPressure sensor Feedback input; PCM uses this to monitor and control EPR operation; 5.0 volts in, 0.8-1.0 volts/14.7 psi KOEO or at idle, increases with engine RPM/load, decreases as altitude increases. PID: EBP (pressure), EBP V (volts)
EBPR/EPR Exhaust Back Pressure regulator
EBPS exhaust back pressure sensor
EBV/EBPV Exhaust Backpressure Valve
ECM - Engine Control Module
ECT Engine Coolant Temperature
EEC(M) Electronic Engine Control (Module)
EGR is exhaust gas recirculation (6.0 and 6.4 only). It consists of a valve, and cooler(s)
EGT is Exhaust Gas Temperature (never a factory sensor)
EOP Engine Oil Pressure
EOT: Engine Oil Temperature sensor Strategy input; PCM uses this for determining glow plug on time, EPR actuation, idle speed, fuel delivery and injection timing and adjusts as temperature increases; 5.0 volts in, 4.37 [email protected]°F, [email protected]°F, [email protected]°F. PID: EOT (degrees)
EPR: Exhaust backPressure Regulator, also EBP regulator Output; For quicker engine warm-up at cold temperatures. If the IAT is below 37°F (50°F some models) and the EOT is below 140°F (168° some models) the PCM sends a duty cycle signal to a solenoid which controls oil flow from the turbo pedestal. This causes a servo to close a valve at the turbo exhaust outlet. The PCM monitors the EBP input to determine if the EPR needs to be disabled to provide power for increased load, then reapplys the EPR as load demand decreases until EOT or IAT rises. PID: EPR (duty cycle), EBP (pressure)
ESOF Electronic Shift On-The Fly
ESP Extended Service Plan
FAQs Frequently Asked Questions
FICM Fuel Injector Control Module (6.0 term for IDM)
FIPW Fuel Injection Pulse Width
FPR Fuel Pressure Regulator
FRX Fuel crossover to end the dead-head fuel rails
GAWR Gross Axle Weight Rating
GCWR Gross Carrier (Combined) Weight Rating
GEM Generic Electronic Module
GM General Motors
GP Glow Plug
GPC: Glow Plug Control Output; The PCM energizes the glow plug relay for 10 to 120 seconds depending on EOT and BARO. PID: GPC (time)
GPL: Glow Plug Light Output; The PCM controls the "Wait to start" light independently from the GPC output; 1 to 10 seconds depending on EOT and BARO. PID: GPL.
GPM: Glow Plug Monitor Feedback input; On 1997 and newer California emission vehicles, the PCM monitors glow plug relay output voltage to determine if any glow plugs are burned out or if the relay is functioning. PID: GPML (left bank current), GPMR (right bank current), GPMC (relay output)
GPR Glow Plug Relay
GVW Gross Vehicle Weight
GVWR Gross Vehicle Weight Rating
GW Gross Weight
HEUI Hydraulic-actuated Electronically-controlled Unit Injector
HPOP High Pressure Oil Pump
HPX or H/X - High Pressure oil crossover mod that connects the two HP oil rails together
IAH is intake air heater
IAT Intake Air Temperature sensor Strategy input; The PCM uses this for EPR control. 5 volts in, [email protected]°F, [email protected]°F, [email protected]°F. PID: IAT (degrees)
IC InterCooler for the Turbocharger
ICP Injection Control Pressure sensor Feedback input; The PCM monitors the high pressure oil system to determine if it needs to be increased if load demand increases. It also uses this to stabilize idle speed. volts in, [email protected], [email protected] PID: ICP (pressure), ICP V (voltage)
IPR Injection Control Pressure Regulator k
IDI In Direct Injection
IDM is Injector driver module (7.3)
IDS Ford Integrated Diagnostic System, replaces the WDS
IPR is the Injector Pressure Regulator (high pressure oil regulator)
IVD Initialization Sequence = ???
IVS Idle Validation Switch Strategy input; On-off switch that the PCM uses to identify required operating mode; idle or power. 0 volts at idle, 12 volts off idle. PID: IVS (off/on)
KOEO Key On Engine Off
KOER Key On Engine Running
LB Long Bed
LOF is Lube, Oil, Filter
LPOP Low Pressure Oil Pump
LS Limited Slip
LWB Long Wheel Base
MAF Mass Air Flow Sensor
MAP sensor is manifold absolute pressure sensor, how the PCM knows boost levels. It is Boost+atmospheric pressure
MAT Manifold Air Temperature sensor Strategy input; The PCM uses this signal to adjust fuel and timing. 99 model/year engines. PID: MAT
MGP is manifold gauge pressure, or true boost (MAP-atmospheric pressure)
MIL: Malfuction Indicator Lamp "Check Engine" or "Service Engine" light that the PCM illuminates when certain system faults are present.
MY Model Year
NGS New Generation Star (Ford vehicle diagnostic scan tool)
OASIS On-line Automotive Service Information System
OBD On Board Diagnostics
OBS Old Body Style
OD or O/D is overdrive
OEM Original Equipment Manufacturer
OP Original Poster
OTC Overhead Trip Computer
P/S is powersteering
PATS Passive Anti-Theft System
PBA Parking Brake Applied
PCED Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis service manual
PCM: Powertrain Control Module, also ECU or ECM for Electronic Control Unit or module The computer which monitors sensor inputs and calculates the necessary output signals to the engine control systems. It also checks for readings outside of normal parameters a records trouble codes for these faults.
PCV Positive Crankcase Ventilation
PDL Power Door Locks
PID: Parameter IDentification, also Data Stream or Sensor Data Sensor readings displayed to a scan tool that represent sensor readings to- and ouput signals from the PCM.
PM Power mirrors
PO Previous Owner
PPIII "Portable Programmer" - device similar to the SCMT made by HyperTech
PS Power Steering / Power Stroke
PSD Power Stroke Diesel
PTO Power Take Off
PTTTM Power Telescoping Trailer Tow Mirrors
PVT Pressure Vacuum Tester
PW Power Windows
PWM Power Window Motor
PWM Pulse Width Modulation
RABS Rear Anti Brake System
RC Regular Cab
SB Short Bed
SC Super Cab (extended cab)
SCMT Super Chips Micro Tuner (similar to a chip that uses the DLC to reprogram the PCM)
SGM Signal Generator Monitor
SD Super Duty
SES Service Engine Soon
SRS Supplemental Restraint System (air bags)
SRW Single Rear Wheel
STC is a fitting that connects your HPOP (high pressure oil pump) to the high pressure oil system
SWB Short Wheel Base
TC Torque Converter or Transfer Case
TCC Torque Converter Clutch
TCIL Transmission Control Indicator Light (OD off)
TCM Transmission Control Module (new for 6.0)
TCS Transmission Control Switch (OD off Button)
TFT Transmission Fluid Temperature
TPS Throttle Position Sensor
TSB Technical Service Bulletin
TTB Twin Traction Beam
TTM Trailer Towing Mirrors
TTM Turbo Temp Monitor
UVCH is under valve cover harness (7.3)
VAC Volts Alternating Current
VCM The Vehicle Communication Module (VCM) communicates with all Ford vehicles via the 16-pin diagnostic link. Part of Ford IDS system.
VDC Volts Direct Current
VDR Vehicle Data Recorder
VECI Vehicle Emissions Control Information
VIN Vehicle IdentNumberification
VMM The Vehicle Measurement Module (VMM) handles electronic and transducer based measurement. Part of Ford IDS system.
VREF Voltage Reference
VSS Vehicle Speed Sensor
WDS - Worldwide Diagnostic System
WOT is Wide open throttle, or pedal to the metal:burnout
WTS Wait To Start
WW Wicked Wheel
ZF Manufacturer of Standard Transmissions

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I jumped ahead on your instructions. The first thing I did was program the truck back to factory stock.

WTS Light - Yes

CPS - I have the one I pulled, one new from Autozone and one new from Ford part number F7TZ*12K073*B on my receipt All of them give the CPS P0340 code

As for the fuel bowl, jumping ahead on this was a bad idea. Come to find out, I don't have a "3/8" metal tube against the motor". What I do have is a valley pan full of fuel. I wasn't able to measure how much drained out, my best guess, judging by clean up, is all of it.

Fuel Pump - rolling the key forward, the pump is running. I can feel and hear it. My tuner gave a reading of 100% duty cycle

Fuel gauge - truck is 3/4 full sitting on a level surface.

Cranking - It's hauling ***. 14.2 volts both batteries charged over night and I kept the charge on them while cranking. Rolling charger, big guy "Maint, 10, 40, 250"

Chipped - removed that first thing.

ICP sensor - unplugged it. It had oil in the connection. It did not throw a code on my tuner. While cranking it reached 1 volt and 4.28MPa (give or take on the MPa)

IPR - Connection good, plug good, wires good, sheet metal nut tight. Now, the plug itself mounted on the IPR is loose I can jiggle it.

PCM's Requirements:
I can't read the ICP psi
RPM I can't read that cranking because the CPS code
Cranking Voltage was 12.8v


Premium Member
8,333 Posts
I think this may be all about No RPM signal, but no matter what, it's got to get fixed...

You're erasing all codes each time you read and that 340 returns right away?

If it's not the sensor itself then I would go over it's wiring, maybe check for a 5v reference voltage in the plug (still trying to connect the shorted GPR feed to your new No Start)

Lots of CPS info, see post #6 for Vref (+5v) wire ->

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I have my multimeter set at 20M ohms. the orgional CPS is measuring 8.48 A+B the Autozone CPS is 8.63 across A+B.
Should I have the meter set on another setting? or are these CPS sensors clearly bad?
I'm a 44 year old child when it comes to anything other than a test light

Premium Member
8,333 Posts
With 3 of them, I wouldn't think it could possibly be that they're All bad...

See if, with the key ON, you find 5v at the center pin (that's the PCM sending the "reference voltage" that it measures the deviation from and would tell you something about the wiring maybe)

13 Posts
Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
4.92v on the center pin. Just installed my 4th CPS, no start, no RPM on the tuner when cranking.

post 5 on the link you provided above. I can't get any of the 4 CPS I have installed to Ohms out like shown.
On a side note, after talking to a friend who has his masters electrician licence. My multimeater for checking Ohms is really only good if I'm good at math, specifically division. I can't check what the CPS are really Ohms out at. I'm to dumb

Premium Member
8,333 Posts
I'm telling ya,,, forget the ohm readings altogether, you have more than a CPS sensor problem. It comes down to 2 things;

The "truck side" of the CPS is bad. The wiring, plug, or some how the PCMs inability to read the working CPS sensor (again, working because you've swapped it several times and ONE of them is good without question).

OR,,, because we're basing this "no RPM signal" solely on your ability to read that value with your tuner. That is, the assumption that a month ago you would have read cranking rpm when the truck was starting like it should. I don't know anything about your tuner or have any experience with it I'm sure (don't use tuners to scan) and I'm a little concerned that it didn't find a code there as soon as you tried starting with the ICP unplugged (btw - that 4.2 MPa is your ICP reading and is over 600psi that would satisfy the PCMs starting requirement).

So, the good reference voltage present at the plug means that the wire (at least that 1 of the 3) is properly connected and that the PCMs connection to it is good. The other 2, as well as the plugs connection are still in question. You've had a good close look at the plug/pins and followed back the wire bundle, as well as you can, to look for signs of chafing?

I think we know you have Fuel, HiPres Oil, good Voltage, and it's cranking fast enough (at least by "sound" on the battery charger).

I think we're assuming the PCM sees no CPS signal because of the P0340 and the tuners inability to detect CPS signal.

The whole GPR short thing still bugs me, those two sm wires pass current to the coil inside it. One has battery voltage, the other supplies the path-to-ground the PCM uses to control activation of the plugs. I'm having a hard time imagining how it could be the cause (it should only damage the PCMs ability to activate the plugs in the worst case). Maybe have a close look at #24, the red wire that got shorted, for some association with the CPS wires.

I'd dig-deep into the CPS's connection with the PCM. Maybe start with confirming continuity from the 42-pin plug (above dr side valve cover) to the CPS plug (#33/#39). If all that checked-out then go from the PCM's plug, through the 42pin, all the way to the CPS (#65/#21).

2002 Superduty Connector C110 (42pin) Pin-Out Information
Pin Wire Color Circuit Number Description Action To From
1 - - - - - -
2 Tan 555 #1 Injector Ground Ground #1 Injector IDM Pin 6
3 Dark Green 556 #2 Injector Ground Ground #2 Injector IDM Pin 22
4 Tan/Red 561 #7 Injector Ground Ground #7 Injector IDM Pin 20
5 Brown/Yellow 557 #3 Injector Ground Ground #3 Injector IDM Pin 21
6 Brown/Light Blue 558 #4 Injector Ground Ground #4 Injector IDM Pin 7
7 Tan/Black 559 #5 Injector Ground Ground #5 Injector IDM Pin 8
8 Light Green/Orange 560 #6 Injector Ground Ground #6 Injector IDM Pin 19
9 - - - - - -
10 Light Blue 562 #8 Injector Ground Ground #8 injector IDM Pin 9
11 Pink/Black 878 Drivers Side Injector Power Power UVCH IDM Pin 23
12 Orange 1087 Passenger Side Injector Power Power UVCH IDM Pin 24
13 Violet/Orange 1086 GPR/GPCM On Signal from PCM Control Signal Ground GPR # 86/ GPCM #8 PCM Pin 101
14 Red/Yellow 1291 Air Charge Temp Sensor Signal Resistance to Pin 19 ACT # 2 PCM Pin 62
15 N/A Shield 48 IDM Shield Ground Shield Ground Injector Harness Shield IDM Pin 18
16 Black/White 570 Exhaust Back Pressure Regulator Ground EBP Regulator #2 Ground 101
17 Light Green/Red 354 Engine Oil Temperature Signal Resistance to Pin 19 EOT # 1 PCM Pin 38
18 - - Coolant Temp Sensor Signal (Manual Trucks) - ECT # 2 PCM Pin 37
19 Grey/Red 359 Engine Oil Temperature Signal Return Ground EOT # 2 PCM Pin 91
20 Violet/Light Blue 553 Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor monitor (0-5 volt) Positive EBP # 2 PCM Pin 30
21 Brown/White 351 5 Volt VREF (CPS, MAP, EBPS, ICPS) Positive EBPS #1, MAP #1, CPS #2, ICP #1 PCM Pin 90
22 Dark Blue/Light Green 812 Injection Control Pressure Sensor Monitor (0-5 volt) Positive ICP #2 PCM Pin 87
23 Grey/Yellow 318 Exhaust Pressure Regulator Control (12V) Positive EPR # 1 PCM Pin 42
24 Red 361 12 Volt Power : (MIAH, IPR, GPR/GPCM) Positive Splice 1001 CJB # 5 (Fuse #22)
25 Yellow/Red 552 Injection Pressure Regulator Control Signal Ground IPR # 2 PCM Pin 83
26 Violet 462 Manifold Intake Air Heater Control Signal Ground MIAH Relay # 86 PCM Pin 98
27 - - - - - -
28 White/Red 1275 Waste Gate Solenoid Control Ground WGS # 1 PCM Pin 47
29 Yellow/Red 45 Coolant Temperature Sensor Resistance to Pin 31 Coolant Temp Sensor # 2 Instrumet Cluster # 6
30 White/Red 31 Oil Pressure Switch Ground Engine Oil Pressure Switch #1 Instrument Cluster # 8
31 Red/White 39 Coolant Temperature Sensor Signal Resistance to Pin 29 Coolant Temp Sensor # 1 Instrument Cluster Pin 7
32 Red/Yellow 3996 Manifold Air Intake Heater Relay Monitor MIAH Relay #87 PCM Pin 3
33 Light Blue 796 CPS Return Signal Return (12V Hall Effect) Positive CPS # 3 PCM Pin 65
34 - - - - - -
35 Red/Light Green 16 Waste GateSolenoid, Fuel Heater Power (12 Volt) Positive WGS # 2, Fuel Heater # 1 IGN Switch
36 White/Yellow 1183 Alternator Charge Indicator Positive Instrument Cluster # 12 Generator #1
37 Grey/Red 1280 Water In Fuel Sensor Signal Ground WIF Sensor #2 PCM Pin 36
38 - - - - - -
39 Dark Green 795 Cam Position Sensor Ground ? CPS # 1 PCM Pin 21
40 - - - - - -
41 White/Light Green 1277 Glow Plug Relay Monitor Positive GPR # 87/ GPCM #9 PCM Pin 8
42 - - - - - -.


Premium Member
3,495 Posts
@NoRalPh this does seem odd to have a relationship with the no start, as long as the fuse 22 is good

"he whole GPR short thing still bugs me, those two sm wires pass current to the coil inside it. One has battery voltage, the other supplies the path-to-ground the PCM uses to control activation of the plugs. I'm having a hard time imagining how it could be the cause (it should only damage the PCMs ability to activate the plugs in the worst case). Maybe have a close look at #24, the red wire that got shorted, for some association with the CPS wires"

Shorting any of the GPR wires to ground(except the main power) should have no effect on the system -- long as the key was off, otherwise fuse 22 would pop(key on)
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