Lawsuit Accuses Ford of Cheating Emissions - Page 2 - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #11 of 116 Old 01-13-2018, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jd4010 View Post
Thread on this topic from a couple days ago: https://www.powerstroke.org/forum/art...re-rigged.html
I swear this place gets bigger all the time. I've never noticed an Articles section. I really should get out of this sub-forum more. If the mods see fit to kill this dupe, so be it.

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Originally Posted by powerstrokeshellback View Post
dibs on taylor swift


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Originally Posted by GregWork View Post
Not likely 'a group of owners', more likely a group of class action lawyers that convinced a few owners to sign on with the false carrot of a big payout. Only the lawyers win in any court case...

The end result will be more scrutiny of weight loss programs and more difficulty in post factory programming abilities.

No one wins this crap, not even the environment since everything done decreases real world mileage and hence in the big picture creates more net emissions.

Liberals don't use logic, only emotions. Hence most of our problems in the World.
I'm sure you're right. "Let us sue Ford for you. Look what happened to VW. They got to drive those vehicles for quite a while and in the end owners had them bought back for crazy good money. Trust us."

I don't understand the mind set of tattle tailing to the gov't. All these over reaches are mind blowingly un-American, and on top of that, citizens run to the gov't to snitch. We should be applauding efforts to skirt any overbearing regulations.

Right again. but muh environment! but muh feels!

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Originally Posted by Buckhornmike View Post
While my truck is nowhere near affected by this, our VW TDI was. Hopefully this doesn't gain any traction because it was a mess for us. We thought that 48 mpg from a diesel was great, but enviros let us know we were wrong by approving a 30 mpg power robbing program fix.
Shame. Did y'all do the update or stick to the original tune?

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Originally Posted by lowmpg View Post
Let the facts play out but right off the bat this seems more about BOSCH than Ford. Seems pretty simple to disprove, roll out 10 random PowerStrokes and test them.
There's some plausible deniability for Ford, but I bet they will try to say Ford should be aware of what its' contractors are doing with parts installed on their motors.

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Originally Posted by blwnsmoke View Post
This is a junk lawsuit. The lawsuit specifically says real world emissions. These trucks are not tested for the EPA under real world. They have a specific test in a controlled environment. I bet just about every car in "real world" is higher levels then the controlled environment.

****, it even says Ford's programming is fine and it isn't a cheat device like VW.

I really despise attorneys.
It may be junk, but that won't stop them. Remember when the Brady campaign talked some of the victim's from the Aurora shooting into suing Lucky Gunner for selling guns and ammo to that orange haired fruit?

There's a law that specifically protects against that. Didn't matter, they sued, lost, and the Brady campaign disappeared and left the family holding the bag for a few $100k worth of legal bills.

Lawyers. Throw it all at the wall, we'll see what sticks.
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post #12 of 116 Old 01-14-2018, 09:02 AM
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We let VW buy it back. The program fix idea didn't bother me too much, drive down the street and my buddy would put another tune on it. I didn't like the idea of being compelled to change it back should my state start looking at those things for yearly inspection. Also didn't like the nose dive in private party sale value. Didn't see any good outcome in keeping it. Its a shame the way things are going these days. With the exception of not having combustion engines and the cool stuff they power, I would prefer to have been born 200 years ago
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post #13 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 07:22 AM
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Here is the link to the actual lawsuit filed, only 273 pages long, Ugh!!

ford-emissions-class-action-complaint-hagens-berman.compressed

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post #14 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 08:00 AM
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Here is the California plantif argument:

Plaintiff Jeff Retmier (for the purpose of this paragraph, “Plaintiff”) is
an individual residing in Hemet, California. On or around August 1, 2014, Plaintiff
purchased a new 2014 Ford F-250 Super Duty from Gosch Ford, an authorized
Ford dealer in Hemet, California. Plaintiff purchased and still owns this vehicle.
Mr. Retmier uses his Ford F-250 to pull a 35’ fifth-wheel trailer and also uses it to
tow a 22’ ski boat. Unknown to Plaintiff at the time the vehicle was purchased, it
was equipped with an emissions system that turned off or limited its emissions
reduction system during common driving conditions and emitted pollutants such as
NOx at many multiples of emissions emitted from gasoline-powered vehicles, at

many times the level a reasonable consumer would expect from a “Clean Diesel,”
and at many multiples of that allowed by federal law. Ford’s unfair, unlawful, and
deceptive conduct in designing, manufacturing, marketing, selling, and leasing the
vehicle without proper emission controls has caused Plaintiff out-of-pocket loss in
the form of overpayment at the time of purchase of at least $8,400. Ford knew
about, or recklessly disregarded, the inadequate emission controls during normal
driving conditions, but did not disclose such facts or their effects to Plaintiff, so
Plaintiff purchased his vehicle on the reasonable but mistaken belief that his
vehicle was a “clean diesel” and/or a “low emission diesel,” complied with U.S.
emissions standards, was properly EPA-certified, and would retain all of its
promised fuel economy and performance throughout its useful life. Plaintiff
selected and ultimately purchased his vehicle, in part, because of the diesel system,
as represented through advertisements and representations made by Ford. Plaintiff
recalls that before he purchased the vehicle, he reviewed advertisements on Ford’s
website and representations from Ford’s authorized dealer touting the efficiency,
fuel economy, and power and performance of the engine. Had Ford disclosed this
design or the fact that the vehicle actually emitted unlawfully high levels of
pollutants, Plaintiff would not have purchased the vehicle or would have paid less
for it. Plaintiff and each Class member has suffered an ascertainable loss as a result
of Ford’s omissions and/or misrepresentations and Defendants’ operation of a

RICO enterprise associated with the Super Duty diesel engine system, including
but not limited to a high premium for the Super Duty diesel engine compared to
what they would have paid for a truck of similar size with a gasoline-powered
engine, out-of-pocket losses by overpaying for the vehicles at the time of purchase,
future additional fuel costs, and decreased performance of the vehicles. Neither
Ford nor any of its agents, dealers, or other representatives informed Plaintiff or
Class members of the existence of the unlawfully and unexpectedly high emissions
and/or defective nature of the Super Duty diesel engine system of the Polluting
Vehicles prior to purchase.

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post #15 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 08:16 AM
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I couldn’t ascertain if said plaintiff actually bought the truck new, or used. How did he know he was emitting excessive emissions?? What did he purchase to fix it that costed him so much?? Lots of unanswered questions.
Otherwise, it sounds like Jack Gosch Ford is still the crooked dealership that it has always been. I have had past dealings with them.


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post #16 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 08:23 AM
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The $8400 is the amount he paid extra for the diesel option. Basically the plaintiffs are saying that they purchased the diesel because it was cleaner than the gas version.
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Last edited by F250_SUPER_4x4; 01-17-2018 at 08:27 AM.
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post #17 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 08:44 AM
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Regarding the legality and fairness of it... If Cummins & Chevy have to play by the EPA rules; it should be expected that the Powerstroke (and VW!) should as well. Courts can suss out whether or not they did. That's why it supposed to be a jury of peers.

EPA stuff.... It's hard to argue that the diesel exhaust stuff is not bad for the environment from some aspect. I mean if you don't want the exhaust pumping into your engine because all the soot and **** gets into the engine then why would you want to breathe it? IE; weight loss & arguing it's not bad emissions seems counter intuitive.

EGR/DPF systems... they're crap. They consume so much energy to produce (IE; casting housing, etc.), they break, they require fuel to clean emissions from fuel, and they shorten the livelihood of the truck. I'm doubtful the energy it takes to run them is worth the emissions they prevent. But, it's a learning curve. Already BMW, Mercedes, and VW (ok, VW is a bad example) have worked their way around the DPF system (IMO; the most offending part of the system). The EGR can still clog but as designs get better they will become more reliable too.

DEF systems. If you cant afford the DEF then diesel engines (and fuel..) are probably not the right vehicle for you anyway.

The EGR/DPF systems will work themselves out with healthy competition. The same way catalytic converters did in the yesteryears. Now catalytic converters are nowhere near the issue they were previously. My suburban has 2 of them and over 350k I had no problems. We (family) have 4 lexus (varying years) and a tacoma with 200k+. The tacoma had to have it's replaced; might have had something to do with the diesel my brother decided to cut his gas with.

FWIW; I think the current designs for DPF and EGR are crap. Mine will "fall off" next month (when it warms up..) for reliability & because I have a CEL for it. They will get better and, as an outdoors-man, I think the pursuit of a cleaner & healthier environment is an honorable one.

It's unfortunate that these companies don't have a private initiative to better their emissions (would you? I mean spend all this extra $$ when your competitor isn't to rob your vehicle of power/reliability and charge the customer more? lose so many customers so fast...) but that's why the government needs to step in. I don't like the growing pains anymore than the next guy; but it's a necessary evil in a time when I'm sitting at home because Houston has iced over in January after having 75F weather in December.
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post #18 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 09:22 AM
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Regarding the legality and fairness of it... If Cummins & Chevy have to play by the EPA rules; it should be expected that the Powerstroke (and VW!) should as well.

Dodge (FAC) and GM are further in the litigation process for the exact same complaints along with Audi, Mercedes and anyone else that makes a diesel.
Just got done reading the whole document.

Summary:

The EPA checks emissions based on a cold start test, this lawsuit is based on while driving test procedures.
The lawsuit states that during towing etc. the system emits over EPA amounts of NOX.
Bosch builds the DOC that controls Regen and EGR, plaintiffs state that during in use testing procedures the DOC does not maximize Regen and EGR to reduce NOX (Which would also reduce HP, Torque & MPG)
Questions Ford's DOC, SCR, DPF sequence stating that a DOC, DPF, SCR sequence is more efficient at reducing NOX.

IMHO this lawsuit does not pass the common sense test but as we all know, law interpretation has nothing to do with common sense.

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post #19 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 10:27 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Buckhornmike View Post
We let VW buy it back. The program fix idea didn't bother me too much, drive down the street and my buddy would put another tune on it. I didn't like the idea of being compelled to change it back should my state start looking at those things for yearly inspection. Also didn't like the nose dive in private party sale value. Didn't see any good outcome in keeping it. Its a shame the way things are going these days. With the exception of not having combustion engines and the cool stuff they power, I would prefer to have been born 200 years ago
I always figured the ones that kept the "dirty" tune would be more desired in the wake of that mess. Guess not. I can't say that I blame you for selling it back.

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Originally Posted by F250_SUPER_4x4 View Post
Here is the California plantiff argument:

No offense to any of y'all but:



And thanks for the info. They act like this is something that Ford came up with and is advertising as something special to increase sales due to being cleaner, not the results of an over reaching obama era EPA. I'm sure that had the gov't not forced this on to manufacturers they wouldn't have spent millions designing it and adding $10k of cost to an already expensive vehicle.


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Originally Posted by rogue909 View Post
Regarding the legality and fairness of it... If Cummins & Chevy have to play by the EPA rules; it should be expected that the Powerstroke (and VW!) should as well. Courts can suss out whether or not they did. That's why it supposed to be a jury of peers.

EPA stuff.... It's hard to argue that the diesel exhaust stuff is not bad for the environment from some aspect. I mean if you don't want the exhaust pumping into your engine because all the soot and **** gets into the engine then why would you want to breathe it? IE; weight loss & arguing it's not bad emissions seems counter intuitive.

EGR/DPF systems... they're crap. They consume so much energy to produce (IE; casting housing, etc.), they break, they require fuel to clean emissions from fuel, and they shorten the livelihood of the truck. I'm doubtful the energy it takes to run them is worth the emissions they prevent. But, it's a learning curve. Already BMW, Mercedes, and VW (ok, VW is a bad example) have worked their way around the DPF system (IMO; the most offending part of the system). The EGR can still clog but as designs get better they will become more reliable too.


DEF systems. If you cant afford the DEF then diesel engines (and fuel..) are probably not the right vehicle for you anyway.

The EGR/DPF systems will work themselves out with healthy competition. The same way catalytic converters did in the yesteryears. Now catalytic converters are nowhere near the issue they were previously. My suburban has 2 of them and over 350k I had no problems. We (family) have 4 lexus (varying years) and a tacoma with 200k+. The tacoma had to have it's replaced; might have had something to do with the diesel my brother decided to cut his gas with.

FWIW; I think the current designs for DPF and EGR are crap. Mine will "fall off" next month (when it warms up..) for reliability & because I have a CEL for it. They will get better and, as an outdoors-man, I think the pursuit of a cleaner & healthier environment is an honorable one.

It's unfortunate that these companies don't have a private initiative to better their emissions (would you? I mean spend all this extra $$ when your competitor isn't to rob your vehicle of power/reliability and charge the customer more? lose so many customers so fast...) but that's why the government needs to step in. I don't like the growing pains anymore than the next guy; but it's a necessary evil in a time when I'm sitting at home because Houston has iced over in January after having 75F weather in December.
As has already been mentioned, both GM and Cummins are accused of the exact same thing. It's almost like the gov't set ridiculous regulations in place with no regard to whether or not those regulations were achievable. If they aren't, oh well, no diesels for you.

I don't. That's why I don't put my face in front of exhaust pipes. After it dissipates I'm good with it.

Yeah they are. So they should be scrapped. I don't know that I would call something forced on private industry "healthy competition".

No it's not, and no I wouldn't. No. Jesus Christ. NO. We have more than enough gov't regulations on emissions. Sht, on everything. Why in the world do people scream for more gov't in their lives?



but muh climate change! Come on man.

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Originally Posted by F250_SUPER_4x4 View Post
IMHO this lawsuit does not pass the common sense test but as we all know, law interpretation has nothing to do with common sense.
No doubt. Can you PM me a link or tell me where you found the whole thing?

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post #20 of 116 Old 01-17-2018, 10:43 AM
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Can you PM me a link or tell me where you found the whole thing?
PM with link sent, if you are able to post it please do

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