6.0 2003 Really hard to start when hot ( EEERRR ) - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 09-29-2019, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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Unhappy 6.0 2003 Really hard to start when hot ( EEERRR )

I am absolutely stumped and hope someone here can help -
Can you read great HPOP - ICP - IPR values and still have a issue like injector o rings or some other leak causing hard starts when hot ... ?
I purchased 2003 Super Duty 6.0 Diesel with 158k miles on her.
Truck was hard to start when hot ,,,, but I really loved the truck soooo ( how hard can it be to fix - lol) right,,,, wrong
IF it was the HPOP I would not have purchased , I am STILL sure it is not injectors or HPOP But I have reached the end of my knowledge :

Current state of truck is -
-Truck starts fast EVERY time after sitting over night, Truck runs PERFECT after starting.
I have driven her about 1000 miles, pulled trailer , u name it - after truck starts it will run perfect all day , every day,
- Truck will take about 5 or 6 tries of cranking 10 seconds or so before it will start when hot after sitting about 15 minutes or longer, If you turn it off when hot and start it within a few seconds it will start right up

I have verified the following data:
Using a Bluetooth ELM and Torque I have gathered the following data AND I also performed the following work:

- FICM Sync is 0 when not running and not cranking, BUT is 1 even when cranking away and not starting,

- FICM Main Power is 48.1 v when cranking away and starting ( PS: I got a used FICM and swapped mine out and did NOT fix it so put my original back on )

- Battery voltage is usually 11.9 but sometimes drops to 10.9 ( rare ) - only when cranking never when running

- ICP usually around .2 when cranking and fluctuates from there to 2.0 and higher sometimes ( ICP sensor looks new and no oil leaking back there - bone dry -

- IPR usually 25%- 35% when cranking away and NEVER lower than 22% or higher than 60% ( PS : guy I bought it from said he replaced the IPR valve trying to fix and it does look new also )

- HPOP Pressure reads 600 - 1000 psi when cranking away and as high as 3000 when rolling down the road 80 mph smooth as can be with a IPR sitting like 35%

- Coolant and EOT NEVER more than 15 degrees difference and I have NEVER seen the oil temp over 100 degrees ever - even when it was 85 degrees out and I was driving highway

- RPM usually around 150 to 160 rpms when cranking and sounds strong when cranking away,

- I installed a Fuel pressure sensor permanent with a cheep gauge inside and when cranking away I have about 47 psi - when running I have about 50 psi ( replaced both fuel filters ) ( note - they both looked brand new )

- I performed the ( bubbles ) test and there is NO bubbles in the upper fuel filter - little filter - bowl

- Never ever uses coolant -
- Never added oil in 100 miles -

WORK I Personally performed -
- Ford Motor craft filter and Oil change
- Swapped FICM
- Performed Blue spring upgrade on fuel pump regulator
- replaced both fuel filters with motor craft and performed blue spring upgrade
- replaced air filter ( was not that bad )

Work I was told was done a while -
- head gaskets and studs - ( I can see there are studded head bolts )
- EGR eliminated ( I can see there is still the stock riser in but was told it was welded )
- New Oil cooler 20k ago ( I never see more than 15 degrees variance between EOT and Coolant ) - oil never gets over 100 degrees

I am stumped !!!!!

- unrelated -
replaced brakes front -
shocks front -
shocks rear -
sway bar links front -
leaf spring bushings full set front -
tires all around -
blue top steering box -
picked up a red matching cab on craigslist for 300 bucks -

Truck looks great BUT man im at the end of my rope,,, I don't know what to try next ----
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post #2 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 05:40 AM
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For starters, your oil temperature sensor is bad if you are talking about degrees Fahrenheit - which I assume you are. No way the oil temperature will only be at 100 degrees F after the engine heats up. EDIT - never mind, I see you are in degrees C (from posts below).

Second, fuel pressure of 50 psig when running is low. It needs to be above 45 psig at all conditions - meaning at WOT it should not dip below 45 psig. Because of gauge inaccuracies, I don't like to ever see below 50 psig.

What scan tool are you using? Do you have any codes? Many scan tools are poor code readers. ForScan Lite w/ an ELM327 adapter is an inexpensive way to monitor engine parameters AND it is a VERY good code reader. WiFi for iphone and Bluetooth for Android. I like the BAFX brand of adapters.

You have posted most of the needed data, but we need to see it all together on a single cranking event. At least I can't tell if the posted readings are all during the same crank.

When it is hot and you are experiencing the no start, please post the following:
cam/crank sync
FICM sync
FICM MPower
FICM LPower
FICM VPower
cranking rpm
ICP sensor voltage
ICP pressure in psig
IPR % duty cycle
vreference voltage
oil temp
MAP
Baro
EBP
tell us if the dash oil gauge is coming up when cranking

Checking the injectors and the injector harnesses might be a good thing to do.

Mark
06 F250CC SB FX4 Lariat; ARP studs; OEM gaskets; Banks exhaust; DynaTrac Ball joints; RACCCV6000; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in trans case; Fumoto valves; Harpooned; Blue regulator spring; DashDAQ; PHP FICM; RiffRaff boots; DCPower 270AXP; Power Inverter; Bilstein shocks; BPD EGR cooler, radiator, water pump; SCT w/ SRL+; Rotella ELC Ultra Coolant; X2Power AGM batteries
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Last edited by bismic; 10-04-2019 at 12:54 AM.
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post #3 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 07:42 AM Thread Starter
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Tool using Torque Pro- with a good elm blooth device ,

While crankibg and not starting and hot -
cam/crank sync FICM sync = 1
FICM MPower 11.9
FICM LPower 48v
FICM VPower 11.9
cranking rpm 158 rpm
ICP sensor voltage 1.9
ICP pressure in psig 640 psi
IPR % duty cycle 32%
vreference voltage ?
oil temp 92%
MAP Baro ?
EBP ?
tell us if the dash oil gauge is coming up when cranking. YES

Checking the injectors and the injector harnesses might be a good thing to do.- see nothing vusually - can u give procedure ?
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post #4 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 07:57 AM
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Cam/crank sync is different than FICM sync. We need to see both.

Cam / Crank Sync: PID 2209cd
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 1
Scales Factor: X1
Unit Type:
Equation {A:0}
Unit header
7E0

FICM Sync: PID 2209cd
Min Value: 0
Max Value: 1
Scales Factor: X1
Unit Type:
Equation {A:1}
Unit header
header: 7E0


PID: 221155
Long name: Calibration Input Voltage
Short name: VREF
min. value: 0.0
max value: 5.0
scale factor: x1
unit type: Volts
Equation: ((A*256)+B)/13107
header: Auto

Exhaust Back Pressure (Absolute)
Short Name: EBPA
PID: 221445
Units: PSI
Max/Min: 50.0/0.0 (stock) 60.0/0.0 (modified)
Equation: ((A*256)+B)*0.03625

Manifold Absolute Pressure
Short Name: MAP
PID: 221440
Units: PSI
Max/Min: 50.0/0.0 (stock) 60.0/0.0 (modified)
Equation: ((A*256)+B)*0.03625

Mark
06 F250CC SB FX4 Lariat; ARP studs; OEM gaskets; Banks exhaust; DynaTrac Ball joints; RACCCV6000; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in trans case; Fumoto valves; Harpooned; Blue regulator spring; DashDAQ; PHP FICM; RiffRaff boots; DCPower 270AXP; Power Inverter; Bilstein shocks; BPD EGR cooler, radiator, water pump; SCT w/ SRL+; Rotella ELC Ultra Coolant; X2Power AGM batteries
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post #5 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 08:00 AM
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I will look for some guides to checking the cables and injectors.

The Torque Pro does not read codes very well. ForScan does a much better job. Especially with injectors.

I would also like to see the "injector pulse width" and "volume of fuel desired"

Volume Fuel Desired
Short Name: vfd
PID: 221411
Units: GPH (gallons per hour)
Max/Min: 0/50
Equation is ((((((A*256)+B)*(100/16)/10)*8)*3600)*3785411.78)
Auto

Fuel Injector Pulse Width
Short Name: FIPW
PID: 221410
Units: ms
Max/Min: 6.0/0.0
Equation: ((A*256+B)*.008


I THINK that this Baro works for the 6.0L (not 100% sure on it though):

Mode/PID: 221127
Long name: Baro1
Short name: Baro27
Min value: 0
Max value: 20
Scale: x1
Unit: psia
Equation: A*0.1
Header: C410F1
comments: 12/01/2014

Mark
06 F250CC SB FX4 Lariat; ARP studs; OEM gaskets; Banks exhaust; DynaTrac Ball joints; RACCCV6000; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in trans case; Fumoto valves; Harpooned; Blue regulator spring; DashDAQ; PHP FICM; RiffRaff boots; DCPower 270AXP; Power Inverter; Bilstein shocks; BPD EGR cooler, radiator, water pump; SCT w/ SRL+; Rotella ELC Ultra Coolant; X2Power AGM batteries
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Last edited by bismic; 09-30-2019 at 11:49 AM.
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post #6 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 11:48 AM
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Based on your ICP readings, the ICP is not accurate, but probably enough high pressure oil pressure to start. 1.9 volts should be 1400 psig, so something is wrong there.

You can always try to disconnect the ICP sensor and see if it starts, but I would like to see the other data that I posted the Torque Pro programming for.

Mark
06 F250CC SB FX4 Lariat; ARP studs; OEM gaskets; Banks exhaust; DynaTrac Ball joints; RACCCV6000; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in trans case; Fumoto valves; Harpooned; Blue regulator spring; DashDAQ; PHP FICM; RiffRaff boots; DCPower 270AXP; Power Inverter; Bilstein shocks; BPD EGR cooler, radiator, water pump; SCT w/ SRL+; Rotella ELC Ultra Coolant; X2Power AGM batteries
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post #7 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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First I want to say thank you so very much for helping me with this, I'm really starting to worry I'm going to get stuck, I read your email and I so appreciate you posting all those pids, when I get home this evening or tomorrow by lunch at the latest I will enter all of them or locate them in Torque Pro and get you values when it's cranking away, thank you again so very much, I appreciate it, this is a screenshot from the last time that it was cranking away yesterday and did not start
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post #8 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 02:40 PM
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Now that screen shows a good correlation between ICP voltage and the pressure. I doubt that you have an ICP sensor issue. Your cranking rpms are getting low. Below 150 rpm and it won't reliably start.

Mark
06 F250CC SB FX4 Lariat; ARP studs; OEM gaskets; Banks exhaust; DynaTrac Ball joints; RACCCV6000; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in trans case; Fumoto valves; Harpooned; Blue regulator spring; DashDAQ; PHP FICM; RiffRaff boots; DCPower 270AXP; Power Inverter; Bilstein shocks; BPD EGR cooler, radiator, water pump; SCT w/ SRL+; Rotella ELC Ultra Coolant; X2Power AGM batteries
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post #9 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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What is a good cranking RPM for a normal 6.0 thats hot ps tonight I will put all those pids in my app,
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post #10 of 64 Old 09-30-2019, 03:49 PM
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Cranking rpm should be over 180 IMO, but 160+ is adequate.

Mark
06 F250CC SB FX4 Lariat; ARP studs; OEM gaskets; Banks exhaust; DynaTrac Ball joints; RACCCV6000; JimmiJammers; Ravelco; SynchroMax in trans case; Fumoto valves; Harpooned; Blue regulator spring; DashDAQ; PHP FICM; RiffRaff boots; DCPower 270AXP; Power Inverter; Bilstein shocks; BPD EGR cooler, radiator, water pump; SCT w/ SRL+; Rotella ELC Ultra Coolant; X2Power AGM batteries
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