ECT vs EOT - Page 3 - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
6.0L Ford Excursion Discussion This forum is for topics relating to the excursion only.

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post #21 of 33 Old 03-18-2017, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by lightfoot6337 View Post
My rpm @65mph is like 1850 or so.
Yep. Because you have a stock 3.73 rear end. I have a 4.88.

The original Ford test specified WOT. That was impractical and - quite frankly - unsafe. Over time the oil cooler test evolved to 65mph + flat ground + ECT=190 + unloaded.

That presents a problem for some... including me. My truck is at 2500RPM at 65mph - not 1900RPM. Even my running at 1900RPM (52mph) isn't a direct comparison because it means less airflow. I'm ignoring weight, too. My truck is more than 1-ton heavier than a regular cab.

But, enough about me...

For you... you should rerun at 65mph just to make it apples to apples. I think that you ran at 75mph.

Then, let's say that you get a 7F delta at 65mph. Watch it. A clogging cooler will have an increasing delta. If it STAYS 7F, then you're good for now. ...but always keep and eye on it for changes. If you see a little creep upward, get ready for the cooler work.

2004 F550 CC Lariat
BPD oil cooler relocation and upgraded EGR cooler (spooled), BPD oil bypass filtration, aFe Magnum Force CAI, Mishi radiator, 7.3L fan clutch, EC1 ELC, XDP coolant bypass filtration, '08 trans pan/filter, PTP direct clutch solenoid, blue spring, 6.4 starter, MBRP y-pipe, BD boots/clamps, '05 intake elbow, ccv reroute, Torque Pro + OBDLinkô LX, Autometer EGT
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post #22 of 33 Old 03-19-2017, 06:02 PM
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I will simply state the reason I believe your delta has stayed the same is potentially because you have gotten the crud out of your cooling system with that cooler, and there's nothing left to clog it further. Just a theory. Impossible to know without replacing it. Pulling a trailer uphill in 4th gear at 2700 rpm at 65 mph puts a truck under a much bigger load than your truck sees going down the highway. A healthy 6.0 cooler should keep your EOT within 10-12 degrees of your ECT while under these conditions. The P0012 code can trip as low as 16* depending on conditions, and trip at a maximum of 30* apart, so long as you've had that Ford updated tune. This means 16* there is something WRONG. low boost codes, low icp codes, etc all have a buffer where they will still be low, but not low enough to throw a code. One can take from this quite simply that at 10-12* apart cruising down the highway, is becoming an issue. Your options are to either let it go a little further (won't be hurting anything until a rupture) and risk actually having an issue, or replace now and not worry about it for another 100k miles+... My experience says your truck needs an oil cooler. 17* is a lot. If my truck (and many others for that matter) can run 65 mph even 75 mph with a 0-2 degree split, maybe 4* while getting off the freeway and the ECT falls faster than EOT, then you're saying that 500 rpm more allows for an additional 15*? I don't think you're wrong that your delta will be the same in a year, but I promise. Put a new oil cooler in your truck and your temps will come down. My old coworkers truck had small tires on it and 4:10s, his truck ran 2350 rpm at 65 mph. His truck ran a 5-7* split. If a 350 rpm gain creates only a 4-5* climb, you want to justify an additional 10* for 150 rpm?

If anything, your coolant temp being higher will only make your delta become worse. Reason being because your oil and coolant temps are separate, minus the cooler. So cooling hot oil with 179* coolant is going to work better than cooling it with 192* coolant. Understanding a heat exchanger does wonders here.

You say your 52 mph at 1900 rpm is not the same. It is not exactly, but not that different. So long as your truck is at thermostatic temp, 192, what on earth does air flow do for your oil temps? You get zilch for cooling your oil with airflow.

With an EGR delete, a 40 degree split hurts NOTHING because it is not the hot oil that hurts anything, it is the failure of the egr cooler that hurts it. I see 270* pulling a trailer uphill in my dmax. Doesn't bother me one bit, it is designed for it.

From earlier. 125* is certainly not ideal, however you will not damage the internals at that temperature. And if you change your oil when you're supposed to, it doesn't have enough time to collect too much moisture either. Nothing I can do about a healthy oil cooler. Today was warm outside. My Ford maxed at 188 ECT. Oil hit 187 while idling in a parking lot for 15 mins. Started driving, cooled off to 174. Literally nothing I can do about that. Nothing I need to do about it. Oil is changed every 2,000-2,500 miles in this truck.

What else was there? If you don't like my answers I'm sorry. For the most part, I do not need Ford's grace for my wrench turning. The dealership is not in business of fixing trucks, they're in the business of selling parts. I work on a lot of trucks that get towed in from the Ford dealership from the dealers either selling the wrong stuff, having no idea what they're doing, or other crap. I don't need TSBs in order to work/wrench on trucks. I have a 99%+ success rate at work and I don't get paid to misdiagnose people's trucks. If this means I'm doing things "WRONG" then I would seriously love to meet someone doing it right.

I mean this very sincerely. If you met me and watched me work on vehicles for a week, watched me diagnose trucks, watched how I do things, you wouldn't have anything bad to say about these things. I come off very strong because I'm very hard headed, and though I don't claim to be right, I simply state what I've learned from thousands of trucks and I will continue to help people based off of my opinions. If my opinions are wrong, feel free to jump in and give your opinion. But if your opinion is based off a few trucks here or there you've seen or worked on, or just from what other people have posted up on here, that to me is far less reliable than my years of experience working on these pickups. And please, don't ream me for having my opinions, right or wrong.

06 King Ranch
Fass 200, Custom fuel lines, 225/100s, Thumper stage 2 hpop, WPE stage 3 intake, Mishimoto radiator, Flex a lite fans, BPD water pump, MPD oil cooler relocate kit, Intercooler pipes, Compounds built by me, etc etc etc


05 Eddie Bauer
Resealed entire motor @ 170k miles, new lifters, 6.4 push rods, studs, rebuilt the turbo, IPR egr delete, new injectors, new heads, new ficm board, coolant filter, intercooler tubes, regulated return, bunch of other new parts. Factory exhaust, cat gutted(wife's rig). Livewire with gearhead tunes. Should go a while reliably for her!

03 LB7 duramax the "daily/tow pig"
Lbz cp3, s475/stock twin kit, built trans, steel driveshft, amsoil bypass, secondary oil cooler built by me, fass, traction bars, trans cooler upgrade, dual alts, straight center link + tie rod sleeves, efi live, transfer flow/tool box tank, 5er hitch, other small upgrades.. and most importantly, STOCK HEADBOLTS! Just rolled 200k miles, twins installed @ 165k, daily driven on a "550 tune" tows 18k on a "475" tune.
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post #23 of 33 Old 03-20-2017, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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So, enjoyed pissing off a lot of people today by doing 65mph in a posted 65mph zone. [email protected] and [email protected] driving on a flat surface. Took nearly 25 miles to get up to temp but once there was consistent and did not fluctuate.

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post #24 of 33 Old 03-20-2017, 08:21 PM
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IMO, I'd just monitor it. It's not bad.. Yet.
A 10 degree delta, even for prolonged periods, isn't going to rupture it

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark.
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post #25 of 33 Old 03-20-2017, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickjames525 View Post
I will simply state ...

I mean this very sincerely. If you met me and watched me work on vehicles for a week, watched me diagnose trucks, watched how I do things, you wouldn't have anything bad to say about these things. ....
Actually, @Nickjames525 ... I found your answer to be well constructed and well stated. I appreciate that. I think, perhaps, if your earlier comments were written with this level of detail and consideration, things may have tended more toward discussion than argument.

We first clashed on the other thread where some newby posted about their oil cooler. From my experience here on the ORG, I am used to a standard process by which we first figure out if they are measuring temps properly, then figure out that they are testing the vehicle properly based on the vehicle characteristics and - only after all of that - render an opinion. Your quick diagnosis was alarming - correct or not.

My reason for being sensitive to it that it seems to me a lot of shop repairs are above-and-beyond what is required. Imagine someone with a loose FICM connector. They go to a shop and the shop says "You need a new set of injectors." Does it fix the problem? Sure - because the last thing that the shop does after installing $3000 worth of injectors is plug the FICM back in. ...and they declare themselves great mechanics. Except, someone's out $3000. Anytime I see a quick diagnosis, that scenario pops into my head - deserved or not.

You don't need to bear the brunt of my sensitivities. This is the internet. People can post whatever shiite they want. But - I'll say right now - my tendency is toward methodology. When I joined here, I knew nothing about the 6.0 and wondered what the hell I got myself into. This place - with the reasoned thinking and complete lack of scaremongering - completely turned my mood around.

Your answer highlighted some of the individual differences in these trucks that I find interesting. My truck - being a F550 with a flatbed tool box bed - weighs in at almost 1.5 tons more than a regular cab SRW. So there is no such thing as unloaded for me. Then there is also the higher RPM which we do not agree on.

I have an interest - and a fairly significant amount of education - in heat transfer and thermodynamics. I had mentioned the 105,000BTU/hr rating on the oil cooler. The reason that I think that is important is that it is barely enough to keep up with a loaded 6.0.

So... consider this.... a reg cab F250 SRW is running down the road at 65mph/1900RPM and the oil is being heated at a rate of 100,000BTU/hr. The cooler can keep up, so they will have a low delta. Then I come along with my 2500RPM truck that weights 3000lbs more. My oil is being injected with 106,00BTU/hr. ...but the oil cooler can only shed 105K. The oil temp would rise to a higher stabilization temperature. I think.

That's what I mean about the cooler - and all heat exchangers - having finite capacity. Most heat exchangers are so overspec'd for a task that they operate linearly - as if they have no top end. Due to mostly size constraints, Ford had to size the oil cooler to the ragged edge. I think that their big screwup was that they sized it for consumer use and then launched with commercial use vehicles. IH didn't have that problem because their HPs - by intelligent design - were lower.

The reason why I was so interested in kayas theory that the HPOP was also heating the oil is that it would further support the idea that the oil coolers heat transfer rating was being exceeded. But, I just don't know.

I really don't think that my cooler is compromised at all. It is an OEM cooler on a BPD relocation - so I have backflushed it a dozen times. We can argue the usefulness of backflushing, but the flow through the cooler is not restricted at all and the output is clean. I'll think more about your comment.

I left your last comment in about the way you work as an acknowledgement that I read it and appreciate your making the point.
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-21-2017, 05:35 AM
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There's got to be more to it than just the btu rating. I say this because the small oil cooler I have in my truck works a lot better than the BPD one does. And there's is bigger, with -12 lines. I used -10 lines and it's a smaller cooler. I also have mine in the bumper where literally nothing blocks it, and air can flow right through it.. whereas the BPD one sticks it in the stack. I think a cooler is capable of a lot more than it's BTU ratings depending on how much airflow and what temp the air is that's flowing through it
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post #27 of 33 Old 03-21-2017, 05:44 AM
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Also, I realize I'm getting nowhere with the way I've been writing posts. I'm taking several steps back in the effort to get my knowledge credible. I see your point on the 3000 worth of injectors. Just a small side story, two weeks ago an 03 came in for white smoking and sputtering. I drove it and it was okay for me, but I noticed if I brought the idle up to 1300 rpm it would miss and sputter like crazy. Noticed the ficm sync going from yes to no and back and forth very quickly. Two techs walked up to me and both said that it needed a ficm. Well, this is why I look at the vast majority of fords/duramax cause I said no, this is an 03.. probably has a harness issue. Made sure they were plugged in, just barely touched the harness and the truck died. Couldn't find a short, sold a harness. Problem fixed.

Another guy came in one time he was from out of town. Said he went over rail road tracks and the truck started running bad. I could tell it was running on 4 cylinders. Popped the hood, plugged the ficm back in and charged him nothing. He was amazed. To me, it's just another proper diagnose.

Anyway, thank you for seeing passed old garbage. I'll try to construct my posts slightly more as a try this or try that, versus a fact.
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-21-2017, 06:51 AM
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Adult behavior on a diesel site? Only on the ORG.
@Nickjames525 , I hope the other techs at your shop observe the conduct. Need more ethical diesel techs/techs in general.
The art of diagnosis in this field sometimes seems to be a lost one.
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-21-2017, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickjames525 View Post
There's got to be more to it than just the btu rating. ...
Yes to more to it. Even while I was typing my description, I had the changing water pump flow rate due to engine RPM and other things running through my head. It is a complicated setup and comparing something like the OEM to air-to-oil gets even more complicated. I may never get done thinking about the issue. I'm mostly just trying to piece something reasonable together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickjames525 View Post
Also, I realize I'm getting nowhere with the way I've been writing posts. I'm taking several steps back in the effort to get my knowledge credible. I see your point on the 3000 worth of injectors. Just a small side story...
These posts are great! Good info! Most people's posts never get better. Mine included.

...and your side stories make you one of the good guys. That's huge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaya View Post
Adult behavior on a diesel site? Only on the ORG.
@Nickjames525 , I hope the other techs at your shop observe the conduct. Need more ethical diesel techs/techs in general.
The art of diagnosis in this field sometimes seems to be a lost one.
Agree about observation and the lost art of diagnosis. A big part of my kudos to you (@kaya) are from watching your diagnostic practices here. Diagnosis by chat ain't easy, either. When I have to do it for the systems that I work on, it generally makes me want to kill people.

I think that the lost art of diagnosis is a particularly bad issue the 6.0. A 6.7 has dozens more sensors and a crapload of onboard diagnostics - good or bad. The 6.0 - God love it - can fail in the same way for six different problems. ...and it doesn't give a damn if you have enough data to sort it out.
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2004 F550 CC Lariat
BPD oil cooler relocation and upgraded EGR cooler (spooled), BPD oil bypass filtration, aFe Magnum Force CAI, Mishi radiator, 7.3L fan clutch, EC1 ELC, XDP coolant bypass filtration, '08 trans pan/filter, PTP direct clutch solenoid, blue spring, 6.4 starter, MBRP y-pipe, BD boots/clamps, '05 intake elbow, ccv reroute, Torque Pro + OBDLinkô LX, Autometer EGT
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post #30 of 33 Old 03-21-2017, 10:19 AM
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Engine oil heat source #1 RPM - churning / shearing the oil #2 underside of piston
Try running 62 mph in 3rd - about 2500 rpm then try same speed in OD - about 1775rpm
Same road load - lower internal losses - less coolant flow - EGT should increase - but the oil temp will be higher
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