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Can I Legally Tow This Trailer?

23K views 43 replies 19 participants last post by  JeffyG1 
#1 ·
Trailer is a 32' gooseneck enclosed trailer. Two 7,000# axles with a GVWR of 14,000#. Trailer weighs about 6,000# empty.

Tow vehicle in Sig. About 7,800# empty with me in it (who really has an "empty" truck?). GVWR is 9,900, and GCWR for truck and trailer is 20,000#. Maximum loaded trailer weight with a fifth wheel from manufacturer is 13,000#.

Truck 8K + Empty Trailer 6K = 14K + 6K Load in Trailer = 20K = OK.

Question is:

Is it legal to tow a 14K GVWR trailer loaded only to 13K pounds with a vehicle that has a 13K max loaded trailer weight rating?

I have searched past threads, am still not sure, so please help me understand and clear this up. Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
they dont care how much the trailer can hold only the GVWR is less then or = what your truck is rated for.
 
#3 ·
You're gonna have to actually weigh everything as opposed to guessing to get a real number.
But basically, each axle has a GAWR. The final loaded weight of the rig as to be below every GWR for each component. Each axle has to be below it's GAWR. The truck's total weight has to be below it's GVWR. The trailer has to be below it's GVWR
 
#5 ·
Well your GCWR (9900+14000) is less than 26001 lbs so you don't need a CDL. Also your hitch is rated for 13K lbs as long as your trailer real weight is less than that, your good. BUT to make things more confusing the GCWR for your truck is 20K lbs and your setup is over that (9900+14000=23990) IMHO I wouldn't worry about it. Don't overload anything, truck, trailer, hitch or any axles, and you should be good. Best way to check is call the local DOT and ask.
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thanks for all the info so far.

@44Magnum-you are correct about the CDL.

@JSchuricht-according to the NJ Commercial Driver License Manual (see below), and the director of the DMV Licensing center, I do not need a CDL class A or B. I do not meet any of the following criteria:

Class A
1. Tractor Trailer
2. Truck and trailer with a GCWR of 26,001 or more, provided the GCWR of the vehicle being towed is more than 10,000.

Class B
1. Any vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more
2. A vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more towing a trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 or less
3. A bus with a GVWR of 26,001 or more

Class C
1. Any vehicle with GVWR 26,001 or less, hazardous material
2. Bus, GVWR less than 26,001

I do not know what a non commercial Class A licence is, so I will have to look into that. Thanks for the tip.

I am still working on whether GCWR of tow vehicle is absolute (GVWR tow vehicle + GVWR trailer) or if it is a maximum rating that the actual combined laden weight must be under.
This would make a big difference when I order the trailer, as to what I ask the manufacturer to rate the trailer at. The same 14K trailer would be only rated at 10K.

If you own an F-250 with a GVWR of 8,800 this would mean that your trailer GVWR could be no more than 11,200.
If you own an F-350 with a GVWR of 9,900 this would mean that your trailer GVWR could be no more than 10,100.

This is all very confusing and a search has not really led to any conclusive info either, at least for me. Many posts on this subject have been started and I think that this should be nailed down once and for all and made into a sticky at the top of the forum so I (we) don't keep asking the same question and waste everyones time.

Now it's off to the DMV for some more hair pulling.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for all the info so far.

@44Magnum-you are correct about the CDL.

@JSchuricht-according to the NJ Commercial Driver License Manual (see below), and the director of the DMV Licensing center, I do not need a CDL class A or B. I do not meet any of the following criteria:

Class A
1. Tractor Trailer
2. Truck and trailer with a GCWR of 26,001 or more, provided the GCWR of the vehicle being towed is more than 10,000.

Class B
1. Any vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more
2. A vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more towing a trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 or less
3. A bus with a GVWR of 26,001 or more

Class C
1. Any vehicle with GVWR 26,001 or less, hazardous material
2. Bus, GVWR less than 26,001

I do not know what a non commercial Class A licence is, so I will have to look into that. Thanks for the tip.
In I am not familiar with NJ but Texas and California both have non commercial class A licenses for trailers over 10k.
 
#8 · (Edited)
Depends where you drive it. On another forum it was brought out that in some states, Va for one, the LEO takes the GVWR of the TRAILER as what you are towing, not what it weighs when they stop you.

Example - my trailer has a 12K rating, my 7.3 '88 van had a rating of 8,800 (as best as I could determine). So I couldn't tow my trailer LEGALLY. Even if the trailer was EMPTY - BARE. That's why I HAD to buy a 2002-2003 7.3L :) And my wife believes me :)

So your math could be:
GVWR Truck 9.8K + GVWR Trailer 14K = 23.8K = still OK for CDL, but the 14K exceeds your mfg tow capacity.
And if they think your trailer was derated they might even take numbers off the axle.

And in the past I've read of other states doing that.

Face it, we've got a big truck (F350) and some states think that means weve got big money.

/edit - And where did you find the GCWR for truck and trailer is 20,000?
/edit2 - I found it http://www.fordf150.net/specs/02fsuper.htm, darn, time to get a smaller trailer.
 
#9 ·
yeah in maryland, they are basically concerned with the gvwr of the trailer being over 10k. and then they want to know if you are going to be compensated for anything dealing with the reasons why your pulling the trailer. That way they can tell if you need a cdl
 
#10 ·
my gcwr is in the owners manual, gotta get to reading that thing lol, lots of useful info, my 97 has a gcwr of 20k as well
 
#11 ·
Yes, I found it in my owners manual finally. But when looking for a truck I had trouble finding it on the web.

And comparing the numbers on the web page with that in my door
Web - GVWR - 11,200lbs
Door sticker - 11,500lbs.
Why the difference?
What would a LEO go by?

Anyways theoretically I could be in trouble if I haul a trailer with over an 8,500lb rating :(
 
#13 ·
@gemniii-you understand exactly what I am talking about. You were 800# over your GCWR with the trailer empty even though your GCW (actual scale weight) was well under the GCWR.
The LEO in VA. who takes the GVWR of the trailer as what you are towing, not the actual laden weight.
In his thinking it is the GVWR of the trailer that is added to the GVWR of the tow vehicle to calculate a number and match it against the tow vehicle manufacturers GCWR.

Are the ratings the law OR are the scales the law?

Are the ratings the rules? That is my question.

OR as Capt. Jack Sparrow said, "They're not really rules.....but more like..... guidelines".

I wonder what the State Trooper out in Indiana is going to say when I pull a Jack Sparrow on him.

Maybe he's going to say, "I think you'd better call up one of your Powerstroke buddies with a dually and a CDL to tow your trailer home".
 
#20 ·
@gemniii-you understand exactly what I am talking about. You were 800# over your GCWR with the trailer empty even though your GCW (actual scale weight) was well under the GCWR.
The LEO in VA. who takes the GVWR of the trailer as what you are towing, not the actual laden weight.
In his thinking it is the GVWR of the trailer that is added to the GVWR of the tow vehicle to calculate a number and match it against the tow vehicle manufacturers GCWR.

Are the ratings the law OR are the scales the law?

Are the ratings the rules? That is my question.
Or are different rules for different fools?
That's something I've not been able to determine.

Perhaps the rule:
GVWR Truck + GVWR Trailer = < 26K is a CDL rule on the books (federal etc.)

And
actual Truck weight + actual Trailer = < mfg GCW is a guideline

as I wrote:
Yes, I found it in my owners manual finally. But when looking for a truck I had trouble finding it on the web.

And comparing the numbers on the web page with that in my door
Web - GVWR - 11,200lbs
Door sticker - 11,500lbs.
Why the difference?
What would a LEO go by?

Anyways theoretically I could be in trouble if I haul a trailer with over an 8,500lb rating :(
The Web link is indirectly from Ford thru the Ford F150 website, and there is a 300 lb difference. As far as I can understand from what I've read there is no one place the mfg GCW is published for ALL variations of the vehicles.

Further perusal of other model specs shows the F350 diesel DRW 4x4 goes to 23,000lb GCW in 2005, from 20,000 in 2003 (couldn't find 2004) and now (2012) it's up to 30,000 GCW. But then it also puts at the bottom of the 2005 specs
Technical specifications are preliminary and subject to change.
http://www.fordf150.net/specs/05sd_specs.pdfhttp://www.fordf150.net/specs/05sd_specs.pdf .

So I'm inclined to view the different numbers (26,000 vs 20,000) as the difference between solid Federal law and published miles per gallon figures.

If I travel clean cut, with the trailer obviously NOT overloaded, everything (from the lights to the ball) looking good and clean, not looking commercial (which includes NOT hauling personal items to auction) and obeying all local laws and speed limits I should be able to get by, even if stopped in one of those stops where they pull EVERYONE over if I'm not in a state that has the 10K max trailer limit.
 
#14 · (Edited)
mustangman02232- you gave me an idea.

Since I will be camping in the trailer, why couldn't I just register it as a camper? Do campers need to be self-propelled?
This is a serious question.
 
#15 ·
wow you all have a lot of laws that make no sense, i love AL they dont look at trailers that are "farm".
 
#16 ·
not all of us can register "farm"

and pulling a jack sparrow would be hilarious, as far as how you register it, i have no idea how that works, could register as "home built" tho, and camper in that way, but i have no idea what it takes to be considered an rv class
 
#18 ·
California you must have a class A cdl or a non-commercial class A to tow a conventional (bumper hitched) trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 or more, or a fifth-wheel hitched trailer with a GVWR of 15,000 pounds or more.

At no time can any of the vehicles be loaded heavier than their GVWR. And it doesn't matter if the trailer is empty, it goes by the GVWR for the license requirement.

The gross COMBINED vehicle weight rating, or GCVWR, is the rating that confuses people. On my 02F250, this is the 20,000 pound rating. This rating is the scale weight of all the vehicles in the combination. Not the sum of all of the GVWR's. The key word in all this is "combined".

For example, let's say my truck weighs 10k pounds (it doesn't, but let's keep the math simple). I can pull a 100k rated trailer, provided the trailer plus the truck plus all of the load weighed in at 20k pounds or less. Because the trailer is rated at more than 10k pounds for bumper hitched, and 15k pounds for fifth-wheel hitched, I must have an A license. But the sum of the ratings (110K pounds in this exaggerated example) means nothing.

The 8,800 pounds spoken of earlier is the sum of the axle weight ratings of the pickup, hence the GVWR of the pickup. You can never legally drive any vehicle or combination with an axle that exceeds its rating, so you can never have more than I believe it's 4200 pounds on the front axle and 4600 pounds on the rear axle of an 02F250. That info is on the label on your door. (I'm in bed at the moment, my figures might be a bit off).

Sorry if I got long winded. And I'm a bit tired. I hope this was a little clearer than mud.

Your best resource, no matter where you live or drive, when pondering these questions is your state's motor carrier division or commercial division of the state highway patrol. they are the ones that have to interpret, and enforce these laws, and are therefor the most inclined to know the right answer.
 
#25 · (Edited)
California you must have a class A cdl or a non-commercial class A to tow a conventional (bumper hitched) trailer with a GVWR of 10,000 or more, or a fifth-wheel hitched trailer with a GVWR of 15,000 pounds or more.
Your close. The 15k fifth wheel is only valid on a class C with a RV endorsement otherwise it is still 10k. That was why I registered my trailer as a RV when I lived in CA. Never did get the RV endorsement tho. Requirement is taking a class A written test and no fee is involved.


being as how i live in cali, and my truck is registered, insured, and my license is all from ga, do i still have to abide by this? i already hate the motor vehicles with trailer do 55 mph crap, which i dont follow anyway
I didn't even know that trailers were allowed to go over 55 till I moved out of CA last year... You will be able to get away with some stuff with a GA license in CA. I don't know about weight but you could probably argue with the cop about it being legal on your license without him knowing better. I had a friend in CA with GA a license that got pulled for window tint and got away with it due to his GA license.
 
#19 ·
being as how i live in cali, and my truck is registered, insured, and my license is all from ga, do i still have to abide by this? i already hate the motor vehicles with trailer do 55 mph crap, which i dont follow anyway
 
#21 ·
Yeah, it's a pita. You're supposed to follow the rules in the state that you're driving in. Some states have reciprocity, they will allow an illegal to them combination, as long as you're following the laws from your home state. But even that gets too confusing. Many states don't. And it is your responsibility to know and abide by each State's laws. "Ignorance of the law is not a defense."

As for looking up and finding different GCVWR, that's partly because the same truck, set up differently, can have differing specs. A newer F450 can have a GCVWR of 23k, 26k, and 30k. I believe the only difference is the diff gears, and possibly the brake size, as the GVWR for the three different setups is the same. Now days, each different model can have multiple GCVWR's.You have to follow the rating that your truck lists on the door tag. And you can't just swap out gears and increase your rating. The cops will go by the rating on your tag.

The biggest concern would be if you had an accident. If you were to rear end someone and it was later discovered you were over weight, or didn't have the propped licensing, you open yourself up to increased liability.
 
#24 ·
I've always gone by under 26k, legal. The 10k trailer weight applies if your gvw is over 26k. So if I have a freightliner chassis with a bed, load up to 35k with personal stuff, rock for a personal project and I can prove i'm not being compensated in any way, i'm legal. If I hook up a 10001 pound trailer of said rock, now I need a cdl, doesn't matter if it's personal or not. This is an idaho state trooper commercial motor vehicle guy. He said a pickup can haul up to 26k with proper licensing without anything else. The don't care about truck ratings or anything, that's, the owners responsibility. That's idaho at least.
 
#31 ·
not meaning to steal the thread but kinda in the same boat. have my F350 pullling a 14k# trailer and i need to haul a 15000# JLG. This legal? im not too worried cuz im only going a few miles but just in case
 
#32 ·
check your state laws. As long as your legal in your state and fed regs., your legal everywhere else.(lower 48)

Federal Motor Carriers Safety Administration's interpretations of the law:

Subpart F - Vehicle groups and endorsements

§383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups.

Question 1: May a State expand a vehicle group to include vehicles that do not meet the Federal definition of the group?

Guidance: Yes, if: a. A person who tests in a vehicle that does not meet the Federal standard for the Group(s) for which the issued CDL would otherwise be valid, is restricted to vehicles not meeting the Federal definition of such Group(s); and b. The restriction is fully explained on the license.

Question 2: Is a driver of a combination vehicle with a Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of less than 26,001 pounds required to obtain a CDL even if the trailer Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) is more than 10,000 pounds?

Guidance: No, because the Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) is less than 26,001 pounds. The driver would need a CDL if the vehicle is transporting HM requiring the vehicle to be placarded or if it is designed to transport 16 or more persons.

Question 3: Can a State which expands the vehicle group descriptions in §383.91 enforce those expansions on out-of-State Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) drivers by requiring them to have a CDL?

Guidance: No. They must recognize out-of-State licenses that have been validly issued in accordance with the Federal standards and operative licensing compacts.

Question 4: What Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) group are drivers of articulated motor coaches (buses) required to possess?

Guidance: Drivers of articulated motor coaches are required to possess a Class B CDL.

Question 5: Do tow truck operators need CDLs? If so, in what vehicle group(s)?

Guidance: For CDL purposes, the tow truck and its towed vehicle are treated the same as any other powered unit towing a non-powered unit:

—If the Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of the tow truck and its towed vehicle is 26,001 pounds or more, and the towed vehicle alone exceeds 10,000 pounds Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), then the driver needs a Group A CDL.

—If the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of the tow truck alone is 26,001 pounds or more, and the driver either (a) drives the tow truck without a vehicle in tow, or (b) drives the tow truck with a towed vehicle of 10,000 pounds or less Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR), then the driver needs a Group B CDL.

—A driver of a tow truck or towing configuration that does not fit either configuration description above, requires a Group C CDL only if he or she tows a vehicle required to be placarded for hazardous materials on a ‘‘subsequent move,’’ i.e. after the initial movement of the disabled vehicle to the nearest storage or repair facility
 
#34 ·
So are they going by the ACTUAL weights of the truck + trailer = ________, or the GVWR + GVWR = _____________?

In my example, my truck weighs like 8900 with me and fuel and gear. My trailer will way about 9500. 8900 + 9500 = 18400.......which would be under 26,001lbs.

If they go by GVWRs, it would be 14500 + 25900 = 40400 which is well over 26k.

I am planning on getting my CDL next month - just curious as to what figures to expect them to go by?
 
#36 ·
Ahh...nice. this sounds like another opportunity for confused dot cops in various states to give me grief. I am planning to go pick up my trailer from KY and bring it back empty. I wish there was just 1 straight and clear law regarding the CDL and weights issue rather than having it vary state to state. I will have the trailer before I have the CDL.
 
#37 ·
Well I finally found someone with ADOT that could confirm the rules. To them, the truck weighs under 26,001, so there is no 10,000lb rule to worry about. At 8900 for the truck and 9500 for the trailer Im at 18,400 which leaves me 7600lbs of personal cargo I can legally haul without a CDL on the trailer. That gets my new trailer home easily. Only sad part now is that I have to pay over $800 for my permanent plates since I'll be registering the trailer wiyh an above 10k GVWR. All my little trailers qualified for a $129 permanent plate. :(
 
#40 ·
med cards and log books are for 10,001 pounds and up and over 120 air miles

you can legally register any commercial trailer in maine for something like $45 for a 10 year plate IIRC

trailers with a gvw under 10k they go by the actual weight of the trailer, GVW over 10001 they add gvw of trailer to gvw of truck.
 
#39 ·
GCVWR is GROSS COMBINED VEHICLE WEIGHT RATING. this means total weight of truck trailer and load. as long as you DO NOT exceed your axle weight ratings on any axle and keep the combined ACTUAL weight of the entire unit lower than your GCVWR.

you could try the Jack Sparrow quote or simple tell the law man "you can cut an apple pie many different ways, But in the end its still a f**cking apple pie!" GROSS COMBINED weight is just that!
 
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