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Old 09-23-2013, 06:45 AM
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Why I was banned, as it relates to the other controversy going on.

Well, I toyed with the idea of posting this. I've gone back and forth on it a fair bit, and was hopeful that, like most other issues that get dealt with on this site, it was going to just go away and I wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.

Apparently that is not the case though. And it relates to the current issue that is going on where a certain vendor is out of the reach of the Mods to do anything effective.

Well, here's the full email exchange I had between Scuffy828 when I was banned over a month ago.

A coles notes version:
A mod posed a challenge.
I acquiesced his request.
I was banned for it, WITHOUT any warning, PM, or anything of the sort (which every mod will tell you is standard procedure)

In any case, the threads were edited well after the fact, but I took screenshots of everything if anyone has any particular request to see any of the postings.

I can assure you that nothing was edited in the thread until about 3 weeks after I was banned, and there were several mods active at the time, and remained active after I was banned, with no changes being made. But I digress, if you read through the emails, you'll get as clear a picture as I got from it all.

I was banned because a particular mod took offense at the answer to his own request. None of which was fabricated or embellished. And abused his power to ban me without warning. I was never a part of the CFD debate. So for any mod to say I was is just plain ... incorrect (to use a more tactful word).

Enjoy the read. I'm open to discussion.
And please to any mods reading this, you will see that I do in fact have Scotts permission as well as the suggestion by Shu to post this.


Question on why I was banned?
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Wikdslo

Jul 4

to scuffy828
Hello.

Was wondering if you could help shed some light as to why I was banned?

The note posted on my account is

You have been banned for the following reason:
Your recent abusive combative behavior is unacceptable and wont be tolerated. Take this month to think about whether you want to be part of the org or not.

Date the ban will be lifted: 08-03-2013, 09:00 AM



Jul 4

to scuffy828
Sorry. Apparently pressing ctrl+shift sends an email.

Anyhoo. Yeah, I'm really at a loss as to what I did that was so bad. Not playing games here either.

Thanks!

Oh.. and uh, the username. Ha! wikdslo

Thanks again!

scuff828

Jul 4

to me
bud I just looked at the mod forum for the reason, and I see your name on the list of people that have broke the code of conduct with all this cfd crap going on , I am personally trying to enjoy my one day off I get today , I have posted up that I wanted to know the reason , and I will get back to ya , im sure the one that did the banning will give me the exact reason

Wikdslo

Jul 4

to scott
No problemo, sorry, I didn't know it was your day off, and you certainly don't have to be speedy on any follow ups. I do appreciate it though.

Enjoy your day off! For what it's worth, I'm Canadian, and COMPLETELY forgot today was your holiday! Sorry!

Cheers.



Jul 5

to scott
Hey man.
Again, no rush on a response, but! I've been keeping track of that thread, and, as far as whatever I was banned for, EVERYTHING that I could possibly think of that might have been a factor in banning me has been brought up tenfold by various members through the entirety of that thread.

If I'm to be a martyr based on the fact that I voiced the opinion of many first, and in a current thread rather than opening a new thread to do it (as was done and is frowned upon in the .org's code of conduct) then so be it. But I'd like to at least have an up front admission of such an action if possible.

The only other thing I can see that would get me banned (which in my opinion was what truly lead to my ban) was when Mitch wrote "I challenge anyone to post up a reference to me calling someone names." and I, being the sagely gentleman that I am begrudgingly obliged him of this challenge. If he didn't like being shown he's a hypocrite, well, he asked for it. I didn't do so in a rude manner. I just answered his challenge. If that's what I got banned for well then that's just a piss poor decision in my opinion.

Well, you know.

Anyhoo. I know you've got a lot on your plate. But I'm really quite baffled as to how I got banned when the only 2 things I can see being controversial on my part are either: Currently being praised in the forum right now through active discussion for people bringing it up in the thread or responding to a mods request to be proven wrong.

Again, sorry to bother you with this. It's just chappin' my *** a wee bit.

Have a good night.

Cheers.

Scuff828

Jul 5

to me
Its late. Im out of town. Drunk and the last thing i need to get involved in org drama. Only thing i will say is no single person is innocent to get banned No one just gets banned for no reason All the situation is being discussed. And if anyone agrees that the ban was out of line. Then it will be handled and u will be the first to know the decision



Jul 7

to Scott
Well, glad you enjoyed your time out. I wasn't looking for an immediate response. I dont know of any other way to contact you that would be more impersonal than email so you really don't need to feel compelled to answer me middle of the night when you are out on the town.

Wondering if there was any update from the person who did the banning as to the reason I was banned?

Thanks.

Jul 7

to Scuffy828
Hey man. Just as an FYI, I read this posted by Shu.

This has been brought up before in this very thread. I'd have to search back but I believe the answer has already been given. We will not discuss another members ban with the rest of the membership. That is a private thing between that member and the staff. If, for example I were to ban you for telling another member to go F himself, I would not tell the whole world why. It would be between you and the staff.

Feel free to go ahead and post the details and reasoning of my ban in the thread if you would. You have my full permission to.

Cheers.


Jul 8

to me
just for the record , the ban has been shortened to only 8 days total , I did what I could , just took it upon myself to shorten the bans quite a bit , so I hope you come back , no hard feelings and try to keep things better , I read the thread over at the nation, it wont fix the problem by starting the same stuff on another site , hope what I have done works for you , its all I can do


Jul 8

to scott
I appreciate you shortening the ban and for taking the time to discuss with the other mods the situation as a whole and how it can be bettered for future.

I will say though that I'm still in the dark as to the reason I was banned. No one has made any clear indication as to what I did, or what was against the rules. I did read a similar comment from several mods in the main thread that you wouldn't post up the reasons for a members ban, but it was up to the member to share if they wanted to when they were back. At present, I'm planning to share everything as clearly as I can see it. Trying not to add any opinion or bias to the whole situation, but just keep it to the facts.

I wonder how will this willy fly, if you folks actually plan to live up to that statement or if it will just be deleted and I will just get banned again for stating what I have documented.

Don't take this the wrong way, but by all accounts, it still looks like Mitch was just angry over this:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25...kdslopost3.png


But I'm all ears. I know this has been a tough time for you folks, I can sympathize with that, but it hasn't been easy for me either. You made a suggestion that everyone should be spending more time rereading their posts before they hit submit. I spend a lot of time doing that, always have and always will. So when this all went down and I wasn't given any warning, or notice, it really didn't make me feel all warm and cozy inside if you know what I mean.

Cheers.


Jul 8

to me
so what you are saying is that if or when you come back , you are gonna make sure that you start a thread to make sure everybody knows what happened to you



Jul 8

to scott
Is that not what the mods suggested the users do?

This is what Shu wrote, post #250 in the thread.

"This has been brought up before in this very thread. I'd have to search back but I believe the answer has already been given. We will not discuss another members ban with the rest of the membership. That is a private thing between that member and the staff. If, for example I were to ban you for telling another member to go F himself, I would not tell the whole world why. It would be between you and the staff. If you choose to explain it upon your return that is your choice."



Jul 8

to me
yea , and its up to you if you want to , but don't you think in this situation that its just gonna keep this goin, , at somepoint we have to let this deal go



Jul 8

to scott
I agree that it does have to be let go. I'm not trying to stir the pot, despite that it probably looks that way.

Here's how I see it and I'm open to discussion. You won't offend me.

I was banned, without any warnings (you can verify that or take my word for it), 5 days after my last post in any thread (I believe it was that long). There was no warning in any thread, there was even mods actively talking in the only thread I posted anything controversial in, and not one of them made mention of anything.

People have stated that they felt Mitch had been acting out of line.
Mitch himself does not feel that was the case, and the mods have backed him up on that matter.

I'm not trying to create a rift. If you read my posts that are (I'm assuming) what got me banned, I did my best to be stern, but keep it in the constructive criticism category. One has to admit there is a problem/fault before they can start to fix it. If a mod had come to me prior to the ban and addressed what was out of line, I would have been happy to have this discussion and take any steps necessary. I wasn't given that opportunity, despite some mods posting on the forum that everyone was warned prior to the bans.

I'm not picking on Mitch. Mitch's actions have dictated that there was a cause for concern as many people have pointed out. It's not just 1 person that created a band wagon for folks to jump on. Look how many people came out of the woodwork to post their feelings on the matter as quiet observers over the years. I'm not saying Mitch should step down, but in fact, in the great debate of 2013, henceforth known as IPR vs BPD, I did make similar comments directed toward Mitch that his behaviour was unbecoming of a moderator. Opinions are great, so is respectful delivery of said opinions.

Users have asked what the reason for each user being banned and why the ban was so severe. I'm still in the dark as to why I was banned, but I enjoy the community immensely. It has helped me many times, and I've been keeping an active build thread that I post up pictures and info on anything I do to my truck in hopes that it will help anyone who might come by it. I don't want to get banned, for anything. If I thought I was stepping out of line, I wouldn't post it. But sometimes, bad things happen, and they need to be dealt with. As you can imagine is the case with the moderators discussing things on how the job of moderating can be made better, if there wasn't a problem, none of this would have been going on.

I'm not trying to state a case for everyone, merely myself. I've gone ahead and made the assumption, based on our first email exchange where you said that you asked the mod what the exact reason was for my ban and that you would get back to me, that since you haven't gotten back to me despite several requests, there is no good reason for my ban. This may not be the case, but given what information I have available to me, that's all that I can assume.

If you want myself and other users to admit fault on something, I'm all for it. If I post on the matter, I fully plan to admit that I was at fault. I don't know what exactly it was, but I did something that got me banned. Be it bringing up a serious discussion in an existing thread instead of making a new one, or offending a moderator who asked a question and got an answer. I did something that caused me to be banned and I wish that weren't the case.

Other than that, I honestly don't know what it was that I did wrong, so I can't admit fault to it at this point.

Not trying to make matters worse. If I felt it was for the worse, I would second guess it. A lot of people are wondering what it was that caused the bans, and the reason for them being so severe. I'm personally ok with giving them my end of what happened so they can choose to not make the same mistake I did.

I hope that helps clear up where I'm coming from.



Jul 8

to me
the reason I never got back with you on the exact detail for the banning was I had not gotten it myself , so when I asked again, I was told , it wasn't for cussing or anything like that , is what more of the keeping the **** pot stirred , so I asked for threads to read to get more detail , one was the cfd thread and the other was , the what happened while I was gone thread , in where he put up the challenge and you posted up what you had sent me earlier today , I guess what the main reason was from what im getting is basically calling out a mod , and just not letting it go so that this issue would be dropped , , that's what I have right now to work with , but mitch hasn't posted in there , and he is the one that im wanting to give me an exact reason

as far as the mods backing him, I can see where it feels that way,but I can tell you that when we skyped yesterday I told mitch he was out of line and he had been warned to stay out of it and he didn't , so I gave him a warning over Skype to walk away from it and let another mod or myself handle it , a couple others spoke up and told him that they agreed he needed to back away , ive seen it time and time again when a mod tells another they are out of line
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  #2  
Old 09-23-2013, 06:46 AM
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Jul 8

to scott
Thanks for digging deeper. As far as the CFD thread, I was never a part of it. I didn't even know about it until it had been closed a couple weeks prior and Portcity posted asking about it. Not to say that I wasn't involved indirectly, but you won't find anything from me in there so you don't have to waste any time trying.

As far as calling out the mod, well, in all fairness, he asked. If he can't deal with the truth, then, you know... I can't say that's my fault. But as I did mention in those posts, the only reason I did respond to his challenge was because I truly felt that he believed he had done no wrong, ever. Which I think it's fair to say from what I posted that he was incorrect about that. Although it wasn't telling someone to go screw themselves, it is not becoming of a member, and certainly not a mod. I was hoping it would be more eye opening for him to, in future, be mindful of past events. I believe I indicated that in my post as well.
My comment about who mods the mods, I'd again say I think it's fair enough. I didn't say you were running rampant like children, but the truth of it is we as members just don't know. We don't know who moderates you fellas, because when a mod like Mitch is allowed to do what he has done, and doesn't seem to settle down ever, the nature of the beast is that people will question the authority.

I'm not trying to stir the pot. I've thought about this a lot.
Here's a summary of my perspective on the matter, and again I'm open for debate, disagreement, suggestions and all.

People are wondering why some of the users were banned and why it was so harsh, and legitimately so. At this point, to them, it's almost a conspiracy. Why are the mods staying so tight lipped if they have nothing to hide. (I'm not saying that's the case, but that's what comes easily to the skeptics).
To not answer them, and ask them to just forget it and move on, appears more like the mods made a mistake, or acted more harshly than was necessary, and that the people were right.
To answer them with the truth, could also set off another disruption, depending on what that truth is.

I'm not saying either is a good option. Or that either is clean cut. I can presume with good certainty that people will ask me via PM one way or another what the outcome of all of this was, or for my side of the story.
I don't know if it's better to tell some people who tell others and let the story get skewed, or to just put it up in my own words (factual) and let people read it themself.

I'm really at odds with both. I know I've already had a few people talking to me asking me about what events took place.

Thoughts?



Jul 8

to me
definitely no conspiracy at all , its not that mods are trying to hide anything , its more just that people come to the site for info and trucks , when this kinda thing comes up , trying to use pm's and mod forum to discuss just keeps the open forum more on topic , so when I have you guys emailing me about whatever the issue is , I also have other members going do we really have to listen to this , so its a hard game to play if that makes sense, we have over 100,000 members on the site , and right now about 20 involved in this deal , so I have to think about other members and what they need to see out in open forum


I mod the mods , to answer that question , and that's why I chose to back the ban off like I did , I do think in this situation he possibly got overwhelmed and really didn't know what to do , and he can be a hot head just like many of the members , so it got out of control , way out of control, and its my job to try and fix it if a mod does get out of line , try to answer members concerns , ive never banned a mod , but that doesn't mean they are bulletproof , just saying they do get *****ed at for lack of better terms if need be , and have been demoted before over the years , so in this situation, he got his warning to back out , if he gets in again, he will possibly be demoted or given a vacation

as far as how you handle it , I cant make that call for ya , if you feel like you need to post it up have at it , id rather see it handled by pm, but as long as it is civil either way and not against code of conduct , do what you gotta do there



Jul 8

to scott
I absolutely agree about it being a site about info and trucks, and certain information is probably best to not be shared. I'm all for the freedom of information, and I think that CFD thread ending the way that it did is just, well, bad luck I guess. I know you guys have your hands tied in certain scenarios and that mistakes do happen. Happens with everyone. But I think that CFD took advantage of the situation, and when it comes to information, some valuable info that future customers might be interested in is no longer available. But again, bad luck. I don't think it was necessarily anyone's intention, maybe just oversight. The repercussions of those actions, I'm aware, get played out far worse in peoples minds if left to their own imagination as to why such events occurred. I'm digressing, but hang in there for a second.

I wanted to remark on my post about "calling out a mod". I assure you it wasn't meant as anything nearly as malicious. It wasn't to call anyone out or stir the pot. I was trying to be helpful. My comment about not wanting to hear anything about this is volunteer and we are doing are best, still stands. It's just as easy for someone to say they made a mistake, as it is to say I don't get paid for this so deal with it. I'm all for the volunteering, and that it's sometimes a fruitless effort, but what I was trying to get at is that you are a wolfpack, in a good way. If someone is busy at work, and can't properly address the concerns or deal with an issue, then why do a half assed job of it that could see the consequences echoing for some time down the road (like we are in now) when you could just call on another mod or other mods to take it over and handle the situation. I don't feel that excuses are justification in the wake of poor performance. Accountability and betterment will go a lot further in life, so I've found.

I'll put it all aside and do my best to keep things subtle if anything at all comes up. I won't make a post about it, only because I'm inclined to lean towards your opinion that some information doesn't need to be out in the public forum, and doing so probably won't help the masses who are here to talk trucks. But if I do get asked about it, I'll be truthful based on what information is supplied to me, without being controversial.

Believe me, I never wanted any of this. Nor did I want the extra work to be tacked on to you guys dealing with damage control or fallout.

In future, I'll do my best to step out of anything that could become a mess and just report it to the mods if need be. Just give me your assurance that you folks will be striving to keep it all in check, no matter the who's or the what's.

Cheers.



Jul 10

to scott
Hey Scott.

Any follow up?

Thanks


Jul 10

to me
Well yea and no. Yes The reason for the ban was that it was felt that you were stirring the pot Which can be a code of conduct violation. And no there weren't any other reasons given. But several mods said they did agree wirh the ban and that. They felt if the ban wasnt put in place that it could have gotten escalated more on your end. So i agree that the ban was to long and i hope shortening it helped anyway



Jul 10

to Scott
While I can understand their feelings I wholly disagree with them. If you step out of the admin shoes and step in to mine for a second, you might see that my first posting about the way the CFD thread and how it was handled was, despite all, an effort to have mods reconsider how they handle things in future. Particularly it was something that became a big topic in the thread that was opened up and was brought up several times by various members who also felt the same way. A proper discussion was had, and some good points were taken and discussed among the moderators.

The second post was merely a response to a request by Mitch, and should in no way have been any basis for a ban other than someone in particular wasn't happy with the answer to the question he asked. That's in no way my fault.

If the mods felt that I was stirring the pot, and that it might escalate if I wasn't banned, they absolutely should have PMed me or posted in the thread asking me to be more compliant with their wishes (which was not stated, so I would have had to make assumptions on, if you care to take a look at the thread).

So I posted a couple of facts about the events that took place, and posted my opinion that when doing their job, mods need to put aside their own opinions and look at the rules and facts, meaning, feelings aside.

For this, I am given a very harsh punishment, and only afterward when I reached out to you folks was I told I was being disruptive and was banned as a result of possibly doing something that could be considered a violation of the CoC.

If you haven't already, I'd appreciate you taking the time to actually read what I posted in that thread, and tell me if you honestly think it was meant to be disruptive and to "stir the pot".

Hopefully that gives you a better understanding of why I made that post in the first place, and how in my eyes, through this experience included, I managed to hit pretty damn close to the mark on my statement.

Cheers.


Jul 10

to me
I have read the thread. All of them. And did call out mods involved. I'm in a spot where I try to back them and try to be fair to you also. The whole deal has been a no win for me. All i can say is I hope you come back with no hard feelings and know that I am working to get staff to be where they need to be




Jul 11

to Scott
As far as hard feelings, those aren't going anywhere. I've been given a ban on account of a moderator acting improperly.
My punishment, time away.
His punishment, nothing.

For a person who had to change his picture in his signature because he clearly broke a rule in the CoC, along with all of the other recent events where you admitted he was in the wrong, he sure is placed up on a high pedestal of invulnerability.

Let me ask you this, if Mitch today, as you have known him and taken in to account his actions over the last few months, applied to be a moderator or super moderator, would you actually give him that opportunity?

Maybe you should consider giving Mitch a few months off from the moderating scene and allow him to reapply after that time period if he still wants too.

I'm sorry, but I hope you can understand that as hard of a spot as you were in, I'm affording very little sympathy toward the matter. Mitch did the wronging, I served the punishment.



And that was the last I ever heard from him.
So as to how this relates. In another thread in this forum right now, there is a discussion going on about the way things are handled by Mods.
A need for a concise and clear cut CoC.
An open or at the very least, somewhat public address from the Mods as to what is being done about the CFD issue, the complaints, their abuse of vendor status to edit threads and what not, OTHER than just waiting for it all to go away, which just doesn't seem to be the case.

I hope this will insight some good discussion that can hopefully lead to an action plan to clean up some of the nonsense that's been going on lately.

I've been reading the "we did the best we could" phrase far too many times from Mods and CFD alike, and asking people to just accept it and move on, until the next time it happens.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:12 PM
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I was banned for simply trying to explain to another member what the point of the now gone thread was...

At least you got a response, I sent no less then 4 emails without a single response.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by CSIPSD View Post
I was banned for simply trying to explain to another member what the point of the now gone thread was...

At least you got a response, I sent no less then 4 emails without a single response.
Your reputation must precede you
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:23 PM
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if not his sig link was a sure give away haha
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:27 PM
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To be clear I was not in anyway confrontational. Simply stated the reason for the thread.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:43 PM
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Nothing personal jus fun
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  #8  
Old 09-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavy_GD View Post
Nothing personal jus fun
Its the internet... Nothing is personal.
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Old 09-23-2013, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CSIPSD View Post
To be clear I was not in anyway confrontational. Simply stated the reason for the thread.
I answered a Mods "challenge" and was insta-banned. No warning. No PMing me to talk. Just banned.

And when I got through all the dialogue, I was told there was no real reason, other than said Mod acted out of line and was verbally reprimanded for it. No other reprimand forthcoming. But I had my ban lowered to less than 30 days, so, I should feel good about that.

But yes, your case sounds worse! Goes to show you the CoC is only a general guideline, nothing more. Keep the sand in the sand box and you can still get a timeout for just, well, anything I suppose.

I truly hope that changes.
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  #10  
Old 09-23-2013, 05:08 PM
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LOL... Lets be clear, I am no saint... I've been banned from every forum out there, multiple times for multiple reasons...

Just didn't see the reason this time.
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