Is it worth their life????

[SAR Pirate]

This story doesn't do much to bolster confidence in base security. It's pathetic that a group of geriatrics got that far onto the base that simply

The comment about them being hidden in plain sight was hillarious

I've used that same analogy and the same tactics on many occasions, both working undercover and in my private business. It works pretty well actually

It concerns me that they were able to gain access through two (2) fences, then walk all that way in plain sight...on a moonlit night...with a WHITE banner...obviously not attempting to hide themselves, and no one noticed?

The base needs to get thier act together. Had this been a group of comitted, suicidal terrorist, and not a band of geriatric nutjobs, they headlines could have been significanlty different

I realize base security is tough. BTDT. but in todays global warfare arena, they really need to step it up a bit.

We've got some real terrotist here:

A Catholic priest and a nun, both in their 80s, were hooded, handcuffed and held faced down on the ground for four hours before being arrested after a protest against nuclear weapons yesterday.
Father Bill ‘Bix’ Bischel, 81, from Tacoma, Washington and Sister Anne Montgomery, 83, of New York, were arrested along with three others at Naval Base Kitsap-Bangor.

They entered the base in the early hours of the morning on All Souls Day with the intention of calling attention to the "illegality and immorality" of the existence of the Trident weapons system.

I don't care "why" they did it, they need to be punished appropriately!

They are lucky some 18 year old Marine with a gun didn't take the appropriate action.

No, some 18 year old MArine is lucky he/she didn't do something stupid.

They are damn lucky someone didnt follow protocol. Although IMO someone shouldve. That wouldve sent a hell of a message to the idiot protesters like that.
Some people just need to get real

The only message the response you suggest would send, is that our stateside "high security" bases, are not, the forces vested with the security of those bases lack the ability to do so, and that they are trigger happy, ill trained and ill prepared. Is that really the message you want to send?

I would have shot them.

Not sure of your background, but I can assure you, given the same exact circumstances, I would not.

Well they are damm lucky to be alive. Had strict protocol been followed, you could have hung them from the perimeter fence to discourage others, kinda like you do a crow or a coyote.
IDIOTS!!!

It really sounds to me like "strict protocol" was followed Had they moved directly to deadly force, they most likely would have ended up in a courtsmartial action. I think they did an admirable job of apprehending, securing and charging the offenders, even if it did take a while to realize thay had an oh chit problem on base

It's not that an 80+ year old priest or nun or anyone else for that matter, couldn't be a terrorist. But look at the TOTALITY of the circumstances.

Take a look at this (in case you missed it):

As they walked, they carried a banner with the words: "Disarm Now Plowshares : Trident: Illegal + Immoral".

Does that sound like a deadly force scenario to you?

Hell, our own govenment is prosecuting soldiers (or at least attempting to) for unnecessary use of force actions in combat!! And you want to shoot a couple of elderly protesters...with a banner?

But if you think deadly force is necessary, then go for it...let's see how well that works out for you

its an example of good training..following E.O.F to a T.
had they turned around and ran, they probably would have been shot. most likely there are signs "deadly force is authorized"
they broke into a navy base. did the thought of getting caught and hand cuffed not go thought there mind. ppl need to think of the consequences of there actions before they do something..

Finally, a breath of common sense

Thank you

Had thier actions escalated, I'm sure more serious actions would have been taken.

More of the The GTA (geriatric terrorist assault) team:

Susan Crane, 65, of Baltimore, Lynne Greenwald, 60, of Bremerton, Washington and Steve Kelly, 60, of Oakland, California were also arrested.

This part really concerns me:

The group entered the base through the perimeter fence and then made their way to the Strategic Weapons Facility - Pacific (SWFPAC). They cut through the first chainlink fence surrounding SWFPAC and then cut the next double layered fence, which was both chain link and barbed wire, and entered the grounds of SWFPAC.

As they walked, they carried a banner with the words: "Disarm Now Plowshares : Trident: Illegal + Immoral".

This part doesn't: (at least to some extent)

When they were caught, they were thrown to the ground face down, handcuffed and hooded. They were then held there for four hours on the wet, cold ground. Still hooded, they were carried out through the holes which they had made in the fence for questioning by the base security, FBI and NCIS.

ALthough I think that 4 hours in this condition, for this particular group, is rather excessive (just from a common sense/police protocol perspective), it is what it is. They should ahve thought through the potential ramifications of thier actions before they comitted the crime.


Of course, this might have had a little to do with why they were held this way so long?

They refused to give any information except their names, and were charged with trespass and destruction of government property.

If you want to make a statement, then be willing to provide your name and such during the follow up. Take responsibility for your actions and your beliefs.

This was one of the things that really pissed me off about Clinton.

I didn't give a rats butt that he:

1) Smoked some grass in college
2) Dodged the draft-didn't support the war in Vietnam
3) Got a blow job from MOnica (hell-look what he was married to

But dang it boy! Fess up to it and move on!!!

[shakc]

it is good to see that some people still have common sense and morals. all these trigger happy "kids" in the military who just wanna kill indiscriminately are the one we should really be weary of

[Zytek_Fan]

Originally Posted by shakc

it is good to see that some people still have common sense and morals. all these trigger happy "kids" in the military who just wanna kill indiscriminately are the one we should really be weary of

Trespassing on a government facility that stores and maintains nuclear weapons should be shoot on site.

[fallendown]

Maybe they were testing base security a'la Dick Marshinco style? Stupid filters won't let you put in the name for some reason......

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Last edited by fallendown : 11-04-2009 at 06:32 PM.

[shakc]

there 100, walking in plain site, and carrying a giant banner! but i forgot, everyone is a terrorist these days!

[Zytek_Fan]

Originally Posted by shakc

there 100, walking in plain site, and carrying a giant banner! but i forgot, everyone is a terrorist these days!

It's a national security issue, no exceptions.

[AgentAustin]

Dang a 80 something year old! Did they think they were going to get away with it. They were trespassing in a part of the base with nuclear weapons, It was obviously not just a college dare, they were on the base to do something, I think anyone with a gun would be justified for stopping them with lethal power

[shakc]

Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan

It's a national security issue, no exceptions.

and thats exactly what they'll be saying when they have millitary pointing guns at American citizens, and that kind of rational is exactly what worrys me. so all im saying is, for me, its good to see people using their own thought process rather than just "going by the book"

[SAR Pirate]

All this shoot on sight nonsense is, well, just nonsense

Any knucklehead with a finger and an IQ over wuh...(refer to Ron Whites' Drunk in Public routine for that one) can pull a trigger.

Killing a person simply because of "where" they are standing, withouit regard for any other factors, is murder.

As a LEO and a military person, I've been faced with these sort of decisions on several occasions. It's not as simple as "you're on holy ground-bang- you're dead."

And for all the "ise of deadly force is authorized" types, just because it is "authorized" does not mean that it's necessarily "required" or "justified."

Given this particular scenario, anyone who can honestly say, without exception, that they would shoot simply because it's "authorized" or because of the location, either has never been in that situation, or is in need of serious psychological treatment.

Now, if they were threatening the facility, the personnel, the safety of the base (more than by merely trespassing), and of course if they were armed, then by all means, fire away!

I still think, other than the oh chit moment when they realized they had a problem, the troops handled the situation admirably

[westcoaststrokin]

Originally Posted by SAR Pirate

All this shoot on sight nonsense is, well, just nonsense

Based on your experience.

Any knucklehead with a finger and an IQ over wuh...(refer to Ron Whites' Drunk in Public routine for that one) can pull a trigger.

Killing a person simply because of "where" they are standing, withouit regard for any other factors, is murder.

Once again based on your experience.

As a LEO and a military person, I've been faced with these sort of decisions on several occasions. It's not as simple as "you're on holy ground-bang- you're dead."

And that was based on your experience with guarding nuclear weapons??

And for all the "ise of deadly force is authorized" types, just because it is "authorized" does not mean that it's necessarily "required" or "justified."

Given this particular scenario, anyone who can honestly say, without exception, that they would shoot simply because it's "authorized" or because of the location, either has never been in that situation, or is in need of serious psychological treatment.

Yep I would shoot without thought.

Now, if they were threatening the facility, the personnel, the safety of the base (more than by merely trespassing), and of course if they were armed, then by all means, fire away!

I still think, other than the oh chit moment when they realized they had a problem, the troops handled the situation admirably

My responses are in red.

When you are dealing with a facility that may contain nuclear weapons the rules change. For those of you that have never been around that kind of environment it is a no nonsense type of place.

I am not trying to start a fight, I am just saying that the rules that these kids are dealing with are way different than what you may be used to dealing with.