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  #1  
Old 09-25-2011, 01:09 PM
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2000 F250 upgrades Need some opinion on results

Hey all,

I have a 2000 F250 7.3 and I get between 9.5 and 12.5 mpg. Because fuel costs are skyrocketing, I decided I could spend about $2k on upgrades which would pay for themselves in about a year with fuel savings- provided I hit my mark.

Well, I purchased a Banks 4" Monster exhaust with power elbow (which deletes the Ehaust Back Pressure Valve (EBPV delete mod) (Power elbow also has a port for the thermocouple so the hole I drilled in my exhaust manifold is now wasted), did the Air Intake Heater (AIH) delete, installed a big *** air filter (wix 46637), I cleaned all of the air passages through the turbo and intercooler, While I was at it, I changed my turbo pedestal o-rings (had to take the turbo off to get a torque wrench onto the power elbow bolts). Also installed Pyrometer, Transmission temp and boost gauges.

Here is my concern. After the exhaust upgrade and EBPV delete, my pickup has crazy turbo surge. So, I'm waiting for a compressor wheel to arrive to hopefully remedy this situation. With the AIH delete, Power elbow and 4" exhaust my mileage went up to 14.5-15.5. A very good improvement, in my opinion.

To make the changes more effective and after MUCH consideration and reading, I decided on a DP-Tuner. It has a gauge mount program selector which I thought was pretty cool and would tie in nicely with my other gauges. I installed the tuner and was disappointed that the cable was not long enough to go from the tuner chip to the top of my pod where I had planned- this meant I had to rewire all of my gauges to fit the tune selector in the bottom pod location. An irritation to say the least. If you're installing a DP tuner- don't leave the key in the ignition! I didn't do this but it's important and they don't make it clear when you open the box. Read the instructions.

I installed the tuner and went for a ride. Power gains were impressive and the truck responds in a much more favorable way. I went on a 600 mile trip the next day and my fuel mileage averaged between 14.9-15.9. I tried several tunes, +60hp econo, +80hp econo, +100hp and +120hp; all produced the same mileage results with different power gains.

The biggest disappointment with all of the money and time I have spent; the drive-ability of the truck has declined. I have a lot of turbo hiss that didn't exist before- not whine when it's spooling up and sounding good, but hissing like the turbo is losing pressure or something. I'm not experienced with turbo's and powerstrokes- this is the first I have ever dealt with. Is this noise normal? Do I need to be worried about the hissing? I'm afraid I'm going to break something. As far as boost is concerned, this doesn't happen at maximum boost; it's when I'm going up a long-slow incline trying to accelerate to speed. I can get to 20 pounds of boost without a problem but when I'm going up hill, I start getting this noise at about 10 psi.

The first time I tried to start my pickup the day after the tuner install, it died. This has NEVER happened. It also died once when I switched tunes wile driving.

I would like to know if these are "normal" or if there is something else I need to upgrade or change? A new wastegate, perhaps? I'm also afraid that the more modifications I make and take my pickup further from its stock configuration, the less reliable it's going to be.

Finally, my buddy with a powerstroke runs Lucas injector cleaner in his tank constantly. I decided I would give this a try to boost my economy. I just put it in yesterday so I don't know if it's going to make any difference yet.

Time for opinions!
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  #2  
Old 09-25-2011, 05:54 PM
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Where are you trying to put your tuner gauge that the cord wont work, pillar pod? I put mine in a pod right above the steering wheel and the cord worked perfect.

Did you put tape on your chip after you installed it? Made sure your connections were cleaned off good? Lastly double check all your wire connections from chip to gauge. I've been running that setup for a while and haven't had any problems.

Lastly I'm not sure about a hiss, but when I'm driving - more noticeable before the 38r whine, I could hear the suction from the intake a lil. That could possibly be what you are hearing? If you have all those power settings you should have no shortage of available power and no real driveability issues.
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  #3  
Old 09-25-2011, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangman6799 View Post
Hey all,

I have a 2000 F250 7.3 and I get between 9.5 and 12.5 mpg. You've got a problem right away with that mileage. Unless that's towing. In which case you're good. Because fuel costs are skyrocketing, I decided I could spend about $2k on upgrades which would pay for themselves in about a year with fuel savings- provided I hit my mark.

Well, I purchased a Banks 4" Monster exhaust with power elbow (which deletes the Ehaust Back Pressure Valve (coulda gone a cheaper route for exhaust)(EBPV delete mod) (Power elbow also has a port for the thermocouple so the hole I drilled in my exhaust manifold is now wasted(no because you want to see exhaust temps as the leave the cylinders so you don't melt them)), did the Air Intake Heater (AIH) delete, installed a big *** air filter (wix 46637), I cleaned all of the air passages through the turbo and intercooler, While I was at it, I changed my turbo pedestal o-rings (had to take the turbo off to get a torque wrench onto the power elbow bolts). Also installed Pyrometer, Transmission temp and boost gauges.

Here is my concern. After the exhaust upgrade and EBPV delete, my pickup has crazy turbo surge.(If the wheel doesn't fix it, you might just need a ported compressor housing. Is the surging you're describing where it is fluttering while you're under a load? Say 1700-2100RPMs?) So, I'm waiting for a compressor wheel to arrive to hopefully remedy this situation. With the AIH delete, Power elbow and 4" exhaust my mileage went up to 14.5-15.5. A very good improvement, in my opinion.

To make the changes more effective and after MUCH consideration and reading, I decided on a DP-Tuner. It has a gauge mount program selector which I thought was pretty cool and would tie in nicely with my other gauges. I installed the tuner and was disappointed that the cable was not long enough to go from the tuner chip to the top of my pod where I had planned- this meant I had to rewire all of my gauges to fit the tune selector in the bottom pod location. An irritation to say the least. If you're installing a DP tuner- don't leave the key in the ignition! I didn't do this but it's important and they don't make it clear when you open the box. Read the instructions.

I installed the tuner and went for a ride. Power gains were impressive and the truck responds in a much more favorable way. I went on a 600 mile trip the next day and my fuel mileage averaged between 14.9-15.9.(What gears are you running? Auto or manual trans? Towing or city/hwy mileage? Cause I can get 16.5 on a crewcab long bed dually with tool box/tools and 100gal fuel tank in the back) I tried several tunes, +60hp econo, +80hp econo, +100hp and +120hp; all produced the same mileage results with different power gains.

The biggest disappointment with all of the money and time I have spent; the drive-ability of the truck has declined. I have a lot of turbo hiss that didn't exist before- not whine when it's spooling up and sounding good, but hissing like the turbo is losing pressure or something. I'm not experienced with turbo's and powerstrokes- this is the first I have ever dealt with. Is this noise normal? Do I need to be worried about the hissing? I'm afraid I'm going to break something. As far as boost is concerned, this doesn't happen at maximum boost; it's when I'm going up a long-slow incline trying to accelerate to speed. I can get to 20 pounds of boost without a problem but when I'm going up hill, I start getting this noise at about 10 psi.
(You're boost numbers seem fine. But you could still have a boost leak. Check all of the intercooler boots for tears or pinholes or anything.)

The first time I tried to start my pickup the day after the tuner install, it died. This has NEVER happened. It also died once when I switched tunes wile driving.

I would like to know if these are "normal" or if there is something else I need to upgrade or change? A new wastegate, perhaps? (A wastegate shouldn't matter. It just makes exhaust bypass the turbo which results in less boost. Mainly to prevent overboost conditions.) I'm also afraid that the more modifications I make and take my pickup further from its stock configuration, the less reliable it's going to be.

Finally, my buddy with a powerstroke runs Lucas injector cleaner in his tank constantly. I decided I would give this a try to boost my economy. I just put it in yesterday so I don't know if it's going to make any difference yet.
Most fuel treatments aren't bad at all. Mileage gains? Meh. Maybe. But don't use oil additives. Read up on the HEUI system and you'll find out why.

Time for opinions!
I'm just wondering about your mileage still. Like I said, is it a single cab or what? Long bed, dually, 3.55 rear diff gears?
Fill out your signature or at least tell us more about the truck and then we can help ya out more.
I also replied to your stuff in red ^^^^^
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  #4  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:17 AM
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Response to questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by average View Post
Where are you trying to put your tuner gauge that the cord wont work, pillar pod? I put mine in a pod right above the steering wheel and the cord worked perfect.

[COLOR="rgb(46, 139, 87)"]Yes, in the pod. But, I wanted mine in the top position of a quad position pod and the cord wouldn't reach. I had to remove all of the gauges change their positions, cut and re-solder all of the wiring to make everything work. Now, my gauges are all in but not in the order I wanted them; the tuner gauge does fit perfectly in the bottom position but I wanted it in the top position because it's the "most difficult" to see at a glance while driving which is why I wanted the pyro in the bottom position.
[/COLOR]
Did you put tape on your chip after you installed it? Made sure your connections were cleaned off good? Lastly double check all your wire connections from chip to gauge. I've been running that setup for a while and haven't had any problems.

[COLOR="rgb(46, 139, 87)"]Yes, taped chip and all of that. The chip is working perfectly. My issue isn't with the chip not working; my issue is with my pickup now dying intermittently and it just doesn't "feel" as good as it was when it was stock; if that makes sense to you.[/COLOR]

Lastly I'm not sure about a hiss, but when I'm driving - more noticeable before the 38r whine, I could hear the suction from the intake a lil. That could possibly be what you are hearing? If you have all those power settings you should have no shortage of available power and no real driveability issues.

[COLOR="rgb(46, 139, 87)"]No, no shortage of available power. As I said in my first post, "The truck responds in a much more favorable way." The power gains are decisive and it actually take some getting used to to not push on the throttle as swiftly and I used to. The power difference is significant. I am disappointed with the fuel economy; at nearly $850.00 for a chip configured how I chose, I was expecting a better return on my investment for fuel economy changes. [/COLOR]

I did read another forum that mentioned something about a sensor mounted on the front of your engine with a steel tube coming off of the top of it going somewhere on your motor. I don't recall what or where this was but I'll find it. Anyway, this sensor and tube can become plugged with carbon causing excessively poor fuel mileage. So, maybe after I get this cleaned or replaced I'll see a nice gain? I just don't understand- my buddy has a 2003 crew cab with canopy and he get's 23 mpg. I have a 2000 extended cab, no back seat, over rail tool boxes and a lumber rack and I'm now up to 15-ish.

It's not letting me post my response... so, I'm adding this text to see if it'll go...
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2011, 12:33 PM
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Exclamation Thanks for the legit responses

RE 9.5-12.5 mpg: This is not while towing. This is around town and highway; respectively. The mileage I reported at 14.9-15.9 after all of the mods was all highway. I'm sure it's less when I'm in town. I have slightly larger tires, about 1/2" taller than stock so my speedo is off about 4mph at 70 which means my mileage is very slightly better then being reported

Power elbow also has a port for the thermocouple so the hole I drilled in my exhaust manifold is now wasted.... (no because you want to see exhaust temps as the leave the cylinders so you don't melt them))..... So, I shouldn't move the thermocouple to the power elbow? I understand what you're saying about not wanting to melt the pistons (what is a reasonable temp? I'm getting up to 1100 degress; maybe a little more from time to time- I would think exiting the turbo would be an ideal place to monitor because it combines exhaust from both sides of the engine but would logically report a lower temperature)

I'm not exactly sure how the reply to posts works- so my messages my be a little mixed up.

Re turbo surge: If the wheel doesn't fix it, you might just need a ported compressor housing. Is the surging you're describing where it is fluttering while you're under a load? Say 1700-2100RPMs?) .... I would say yes, you could call it fluttering. But, like I said, I'm not familiar with turbos because this is the first turbo vehicle I've had. I'm not sure what all of the terms are to describe what I'm hearing. By under load, I'm not towing anything when this happens; just (most commonly- it happens other times as well) when I'm accelerating up a long slow incline on one of the big hills in my area.

Should I spend $450 on a ported housing or just dump another $1500 on a ball bearing turbo with ported housing. I've read that these can't be used with the compressor wheels designed to eliminate surge. I really wish I had more experience and knowledge with these things!

I have a limited slip with 3.73's. Automatic transmission that has no slip and running between 120 and 140 degrees over long distances which actually seems pretty cool to me but I'm not sure what temp it should be running anyway. I have two fully loaded over-rail aluminum tool boxes on my truck- the kind that fit down into the bed not up on top of the rail and I have a 16' lumber rack. I removed my rear seat for more storage room; overall, weight should only be a few hundred pounds heavier than stock-

Your boost numbers seem fine. But you could still have a boost leak. Check all of the intercooler boots for tears or pinholes or anything.- I've checked and everything looks good. The noise is coming from the turbo without a doubt. Another question though, when I installed the power elbow to the turbo, banks said to torque these to 60 inch pounds. It seemed kind of loose to me. Another source I found said to torque the bolts to ~190 inch pounds. Any idea which is correct? I don't want to over torque but I certainly don't want to under torque either!

A new wastegate, perhaps? (A wastegate shouldn't matter. It just makes exhaust bypass the turbo which results in less boost. Mainly to prevent overboost conditions.) This is precisely why I'm thinking I might need a new wastegate. Could it be possible that the noise I'm hearing is the wastegate opening prematurely and allowing the exhaust to bypass the turbo thus, creating the sound that I'm hearing? Do wastegates weaken over time? There are several wastegate options available on xtremedieselperformance.com but their description is non-existent. I don't know what benefit they would provide.

Finally, my buddy with a powerstroke runs Lucas injector cleaner in his tank constantly. I decided I would give this a try to boost my economy. I just put it in yesterday so I don't know if it's going to make any difference yet.
Most fuel treatments aren't bad at all. Mileage gains? Meh. Maybe. But don't use oil additives. Read up on the HEUI system and you'll find out why.



Time for opinions!
I'm just wondering about your mileage still. Like I said, is it a single cab or what? Long bed, dually, 3.55 rear diff gears?
Fill out your signature or at least tell us more about the truck and then we can help ya out more.
I also replied to your stuff in red ^^^^^
__________________


I filled out my signature while I was responding to this post. My pick up is an extended cab, long bed. I think I've covered everything else in this post but if you have other questions, please ask. I could certainly use the advice.
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  #6  
Old 09-26-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustangman6799 View Post
So, I shouldn't move the thermocouple to the power elbow? I understand what you're saying about not wanting to melt the pistons (what is a reasonable temp? I'm getting up to 1100 degress; maybe a little more from time to time- I would think exiting the turbo would be an ideal place to monitor because it combines exhaust from both sides of the engine but would logically report a lower temperature)

You're correct, you'll lose heat in the turbo, manifold, and uppipes resulting in up to a 600* diff cooler than actual. So leave it in the manifold. One manifold won't be too much diff than the other. If anything, the driver side will be higher cause #6 and #8 cyls fire in succession. 1250 is usually agreed as max. The higher over that less amount of time you need to spend there.

I'm not exactly sure how the reply to posts works- so my messages my be a little mixed up.

You can click the 'quote' feature at the bottom right of a persons post. The middle button allows you to reply to multiple posts.

I would say yes, you could call it fluttering. But, like I said, I'm not familiar with turbos because this is the first turbo vehicle I've had. I'm not sure what all of the terms are to describe what I'm hearing. By under load, I'm not towing anything when this happens; just (most commonly- it happens other times as well) when I'm accelerating up a long slow incline on one of the big hills in my area.

Under load I mean you've got boost basically. That's probably is surge. There are some videos of surge somewhere on here.

Should I spend $450 on a ported housing or just dump another $1500 on a ball bearing turbo with ported housing. I've read that these can't be used with the compressor wheels designed to eliminate surge. I really wish I had more experience and knowledge with these things!

Depends on how much power you wanna push. Just read a whole lot on the 7.3 sections and you'll learn. The Wicked Wheel/X wheel whatever SOMETIMES fixes surge. The ported shroud will for sure fix it. I don't see why you can't use them at once.

I have a limited slip with 3.73's. Automatic transmission that has no slip and running between 120 and 140 degrees over long distances which actually seems pretty cool to me but I'm not sure what temp it should be running anyway. That's a pretty good temp. I have two fully loaded over-rail aluminum tool boxes on my truck- the kind that fit down into the bed not up on top of the rail and I have a 16' lumber rack. I removed my rear seat for more storage room; overall, weight should only be a few hundred pounds heavier than stock-

The noise is coming from the turbo without a doubt. Another question though, when I installed the power elbow to the turbo, banks said to torque these to 60 inch pounds. It seemed kind of loose to me. Another source I found said to torque the bolts to ~190 inch pounds. Any idea which is correct? I don't want to over torque but I certainly don't want to under torque either!

On the boots? I just tighten till it's tight?

This is precisely why I'm thinking I might need a new wastegate. Could it be possible that the noise I'm hearing is the wastegate opening prematurely and allowing the exhaust to bypass the turbo thus, creating the sound that I'm hearing? Do wastegates weaken over time? There are several wastegate options available on xtremedieselperformance.com but their description is non-existent. I don't know what benefit they would provide.

You won't hear the wastegate open. The run off vacuum so it can weaken. Mainly they are stronger and you can preset them to open at a certain boost level. For stock applications it's ok.
Now don't let me tell you everything. Like I said, look in the 7.3 sections (mods, problems, general, everthing) and you'll learn all kinds of stuff.
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  #7  
Old 09-26-2011, 11:15 PM
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Im still gonna say you have a problem..i get 14.5 in town alone... i got 19.5 climbing mountains and cruising highways for 400 miles... got over 20 on flat highway...
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Old 10-01-2011, 05:58 AM
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Hmm those numbers seem a bit low. I'm sure There could be Lots of contributing factors? What altitude are you running in? I would most definitely check for boost leaks. This would describe the hissing noise. That or you left the bung in the exhaust post turbo for egt hook-up open? I love the sound of my turbo trying to eat my 6637 lol.

I have an ext cab lb 4x4 on 35's and my average mpg is 16.5 mixed city highway. I feel like there is more to be squeezed from mine too. Another possibility is a bad tune contributing to your issues. I have a crappy diablo sport chip and it has given me nothing but problems. It was giving me tranny issues on the hot setting. (missing second completely)

Are you taking it easy on the throttle? That skinny pedal has the biggest effect on mpg.

One last thing. Have you changed the fuel filter?
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  #9  
Old 10-01-2011, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slimline View Post
I love the sound of my turbo trying to eat my 6637 lol.
This is one the best things I've ever heard
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  #10  
Old 10-02-2011, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jesilvas View Post
This is one the best things I've ever heard
Haha glad I could brighten someone's day
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