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Old 02-24-2012, 04:08 AM
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Dealer Disaster

I decided it was time to get my transmission harsh shifts looked at so I took my truck to the dealership here in Central PA. While there I decided to get the oil changed...Dropped the truck off the night before so they could test drive it in the morning with everything cold as the transmission problem is much more apparent. I get a call the following day saying they found no problems with the transmission and had never heard of replacing the solenoids. They said during the oil change they decided to test the radiator as the message had came on to test coolant and it failed requiring two bottles of revitilizer. Hesitating after reading posts of dealers screwing this up and using the wrong stuff I said "You are aware that you have to use a different additive than what is used in the 6.4L motor" and they said yes they knew and had the proper revitilizer VC-8. At the time I did not have access to the forum but prior to picking up my truck i logged in to find they added the incorrect stuff...They should have added VC-12. I called immediately and after arguing with the service manager he finally said they will pump out the VC-8 and refill the system. After getting there thinking i got a full flush i was quickly made aware that they only siphoned out the VC-8 from the overflow and radiator because they claimed the motor had never been ran...yet when i got there they were just adding coolant and the truck was extremely warm...I call BS. The service manager finally admited that their diesel tech was off that day so one can only imagine who was doing the work on the truck to begin with. I've demanded a full system flush and someone actually qualified to test drive the truck about the transmission issue. Moral of the story be sure to know exactly what the dealer is adding to your radiator when you get the check coolant message because not all of them appear to know what they are doing
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:19 AM
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Wow.....that is sad.

I would put a call into corporate so that they could perhaps log this issue with your VIN.
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Old 02-24-2012, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by tjbrowder View Post
Wow.....that is sad.

I would put a call into corporate so that they could perhaps log this issue with your VIN.
I agree and I am hoping that my call to Ford's customer service made the issue documented incase i have issues down the road.
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:15 AM
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It's so so so sad that Ford hasn't been able to develop an engine that doesn't have such horrible coolant problems. I know I was surprised when my inlaws truck had to have some pretty heavy engine work done due to electrolosis errosion. And the bad part was that was a very reliable 7.3 that turned out to be a turd too. WAKE UP FORD!
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Old 02-26-2012, 10:21 AM
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Also to add to the op's comments. I don't see this as being a "Dealer Disaster". This problem is easily solved by draining, flushing and replacing your coolant. Not the end of the world, just a minor inconvenience. I do understand as I have dealt with an incompetent Dodge dealer for years.
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Old 02-26-2012, 02:47 PM
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So, what would have happened to the motor had he not researched and found they put the wrong stuff in?

Would it qualify as a disaster then?

If your going to sell a vehicle that is so sensitive to the right stuff, you should have competent people working on it.

Mark
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MDarrough View Post
So, what would have happened to the motor had he not researched and found they put the wrong stuff in?

Would it qualify as a disaster then?

If your going to sell a vehicle that is so sensitive to the right stuff, you should have competent people working on it.

Mark
Thats exactly what I was thinking, Mark!

After them not fixing the issue correctly when I brought it up to them...I guarantee had I not noticed it and they had found out down the road they surely would not have contacted me to admit their mistake.

I have an appointment with another dealership an hour away this week. The new dealership contacted Ford customer service about whether Ford will pay to have the radiator completely flushed after the other dealerships screw up...Hopefully I will find out what they have decided to do.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by olypopper View Post
It's so so so sad that Ford hasn't been able to develop an engine that doesn't have such horrible coolant problems. I know I was surprised when my inlaws truck had to have some pretty heavy engine work done due to electrolosis errosion. And the bad part was that was a very reliable 7.3 that turned out to be a turd too. WAKE UP FORD!
Cavitation is a diesel issue, not a Ford issue. It can be resolved thru regular coolant checking, flushing coolant, using the correct coolant. You will find it in everything diesel water cooled...from tractors to marine engines. Your inlaws problem is maintainance related.

Quoted from Arrowhead Radiator Service

Would you believe me if I were to tell you that the presence of a few tiny bubbles, some so small that you need a microscope to see them, could destroy a diesel engine? One problem that has been plaguing the owners of diesel rigs for years is cavitation.

Cavitation is the formation and collapse of air bubbles on the outside of the cylinder walls during combustion (does not apply to dry-liner engines). These air bubbles implode repeatedly against the surface of the liner and can cause erosion of the liner that may progress into the combustion chamber.

Cavitation is further aggravated by vibration of the cylinder liner. The movement of the piston causes the cylinder liner to vibrate at a high frequency. When the cylinder liner vibrates, bubbles are formed in the water passages next to the liner. These bubbles then implode against the cylinder liner. The implosion of the bubbles will ultimately form pinholes in the liner.



UNDERSTANDING CAVITATION

In elastic media such as air and in most solids, there is a continuous transition as a sound wave is transmitted. In non-elastic media such as water and in most liquids, there is continuous transition as long as the amplitude or "loudness" of the sound is relatively low. As amplitude is increased, however, the magnitude of the negative pressure in the areas of rarefaction (pockets of low pressure) eventually becomes sufficient to cause the liquid to fracture, causing a phenomenon known as cavitation.

Cavitation bubbles are created at sites of low pressure as the liquid fractures or tears because of the negative pressure of the sound waves in the liquid. As the wave fronts pass, the cavitation bubbles oscillate under the influence of positive pressure, eventually growing to an unstable size. Finally, the violent collapse of the cavitation bubbles results in implosions, which cause shock waves to be radiated from the sites of the collapse. The collapse and implosion of myriad cavitation bubbles throughout an ultrasonically activated liquid result in the effect commonly associated with ultrasonics. It has been calculated that temperatures in excess of 10,000̊F and pressures in excess of 10,000 psi are generated at the implosion sites of cavitation bubbles.


Could not find an intelligent response to the turd comment,,
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Old 02-26-2012, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richc22c View Post
Cavitation is a diesel issue, not a Ford issue. It can be resolved thru regular coolant checking, flushing coolant, using the correct coolant. You will find it in everything diesel water cooled...from tractors to marine engines. Your inlaws problem is maintainance related.

Quoted from Arrowhead Radiator Service

Would you believe me if I were to tell you that the presence of a few tiny bubbles, some so small that you need a microscope to see them, could destroy a diesel engine? One problem that has been plaguing the owners of diesel rigs for years is cavitation.

Cavitation is the formation and collapse of air bubbles on the outside of the cylinder walls during combustion (does not apply to dry-liner engines). These air bubbles implode repeatedly against the surface of the liner and can cause erosion of the liner that may progress into the combustion chamber.

Cavitation is further aggravated by vibration of the cylinder liner. The movement of the piston causes the cylinder liner to vibrate at a high frequency. When the cylinder liner vibrates, bubbles are formed in the water passages next to the liner. These bubbles then implode against the cylinder liner. The implosion of the bubbles will ultimately form pinholes in the liner.



UNDERSTANDING CAVITATION

In elastic media such as air and in most solids, there is a continuous transition as a sound wave is transmitted. In non-elastic media such as water and in most liquids, there is continuous transition as long as the amplitude or "loudness" of the sound is relatively low. As amplitude is increased, however, the magnitude of the negative pressure in the areas of rarefaction (pockets of low pressure) eventually becomes sufficient to cause the liquid to fracture, causing a phenomenon known as cavitation.

Cavitation bubbles are created at sites of low pressure as the liquid fractures or tears because of the negative pressure of the sound waves in the liquid. As the wave fronts pass, the cavitation bubbles oscillate under the influence of positive pressure, eventually growing to an unstable size. Finally, the violent collapse of the cavitation bubbles results in implosions, which cause shock waves to be radiated from the sites of the collapse. The collapse and implosion of myriad cavitation bubbles throughout an ultrasonically activated liquid result in the effect commonly associated with ultrasonics. It has been calculated that temperatures in excess of 10,000̊F and pressures in excess of 10,000 psi are generated at the implosion sites of cavitation bubbles.


Could not find an intelligent response to the turd comment,,
Then why is Ford the only one that has to have a warning system in place to have it checked? I doubt it's because they care sooooo much. Seems that as long as I can remember they have been fighting problems with cooling system problems on the diesels.

Also, is this a cavitation issue or an electrolosis issue, two very different destructive forces?
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:15 PM
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the internet is a great source for information;

per another forum, electrolysis does not erode, it plates, adding material. (In the days past, old style coolant flowing thru iron blocks, aluminum heads would cause aluminum radiators to clog). Cavitation erodes. All diesels have issues with cavitation, it is dealt with by every manufacturer with coolant maintainance. Gas motors ALSO need the coolant maintained.
Ford has a high tech engine in the 6.7 with aluminum heads and a compacted graphite iron block, the coolant is a fluid that requires maintainance as does the oil.
My 7.3 had 340,000 miles and was still running strong the day it was totalled. I maintained the oil using synthetic mobil 1, and maintained the coolant (test strips are available at a good auto parts store), the result was a truck that still smoked the tires at 340k. Ford has a light that tells you the oil needs changed, a coolant message is posted when it needs checked. This assists people as your inlaws who were not aware of a maintainance issue, just buying a vehicle and driving it has responsibility beyond fuel. Sadly, dealers do not inform buyers of any make of cavitation, probably trusting buyers to bring their vehicles in for the scheduled maintainance points. Ford has stepped up the info beyond it's sales/shop staff.

A lot of auto mechanics that do not know diesels, are not aware of cavitation, as your inlaws were not. Diesels are tough work engines, high compression, close tolerances, that can take a lot of abuse and deliver gobs of torque. However neglect comes with a heavy price. You can trash Ford, and find the same problems with Kubota, Cummins, or any diesel with a Google search. If Ford is the only manufacturer of diesels, you are correct.
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