Amazed at the difference in forums for these 6.0L's - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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Old 06-15-2012, 07:43 PM
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Amazed at the difference in forums for these 6.0L's

So, I suppose this thread is more venting than anything. Sorry, don't mean to clutter the site that way, BUT, I recently joined another forum and actually, I was doing some research on the V10's. That's when I noticed that they had a forum for diesels too. So, I responded to a thread that someone posted about wanting to know more about the 6.0L and it's variety of issues. I felt that what I posted was nothing more than honesty. WOW! Did I ever get blasted! I can't help thinking that all on that forum are in some state of denial about the issues that plague these engines. I'll admit, that day I was a little upset about mine. I probably shouldn't have been. My engine had 2 injectors crap out on me. Not that big of a deal in the big scheme of things. It could have been MUCH worse, I know. I'll admit that I referred to the PowerStroke as "junk". Now keep in mine that there are MANY that will agree with me. Probably just as many will not. There are plenty of examples of engines with over 200M miles on them with no issues. I realize that. I also know that just about every engine will have their own unique problems. But the International 6.0L has so many issues, that it has earned an infamous reputation. Not just in Ford's either. I have 2 medium duty Internationals with this engine and they have more issues than they should at less than 100M miles. Both have been maintained to the letter at the dealer too, so I have some pretty first hand experience with this.

Here is my position; We all paid a premium for the diesel option, even if we bought used. When I pay a premium for something, I expect something in return. In the case of a diesel engine, I expect durability, performance when towing and better mileage. I don't think that's unreasonable. When an engine manufacturer produces an engine that promises these things and does not fulfill, disappointment and anger set it. This is the case with SO many PowerStroke owners. What made it worse, is that the previous PowerStroke, the bullet proof 7.3L was and still is a great engine. Yes, the 6.0L has some enhancements, but a vehicle will literally fall apart around a still running 7.3L. This only made matters worse for International. I have read many stories about possible Class Action Law Suits against International over the 6.0L., although I personally don't think any will gain traction. Engines that do not earn bad reputions don't have these threats looming, so to those who claim that the bad reputation is not justified with the 6.0L, I say you must be in some sort of denial state to perhaps justify a poor choice of engines. These engines DO have far more issues than they should. That doesn't mean that there are'nt good ones out there. If you have one, you are indeed fortunate. Pray that this does change for you. I also realize that many of these issues are caused by the "modders" who want to turn their diesels in to hot-rods. That is NOT what these are intended for. If you want a hot-rod, go buy an old GTO or something.

I don't mean to trash talk the 6.0L. Why I do state these things is the very reason that I read through these threads. To learn. Someone who is considering buying a 6.0L MUST read and learn about the issues with these engines so that they can make a well educated decision to buy. I learned enough that when I bought mine, I avoided the very early builds. I have over 200M miles on mine and I have had a few issues. But the mechanic that I use said that mine is the cleanest PowerStroke that he works on, so I suppose I can't complain too much. But if we pay a premium for the engine and then have to throw wads of cash at it to keep them running good, then that is NOT good value. I've been around diesels for decades. I am a former diesel mechanic myself, so I know my way around engines. Still wrench on them when time permits. But space age technology limits my abilities. I know from experience that Cummins run for a very long time with not too many issues. I have 2 GMC vans at work with the DuraMax diesels. Both have over 100M miles and neither one has been to the dealership with a problem. THAT is durability. Naturally, it's all about how an engine is maintained.

Sorry for the wordy thread. I do like my 6.0L. I am the first to admit that it probably wasn't the best choice I've made in an engine. And I will tell anyone who asks what the issues are. These engines can be fun and cool, but to deny the problems, like all of the guys on the 'other site' is just foolish.
You aren't fooling anyone.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by bcpape View Post
I also realize that many of these issues are caused by the "modders" who want to turn their diesels in to hot-rods. That is NOT what these are intended for. If you want a hot-rod, go buy an old GTO or something.
This is the only thing I disagree with. Those types of issues you're referring to like melted motors and thrown rods are not common in a 6.0, 7.3, 6.4, or anything in their stock form.
The issues that are 'infamous' in a 6.0 are from bad designs, implementations, and owners who didn't keep up on maintenance. Not just one or all of them in each case, but a combination depending on case.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:13 PM
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It was inaccurate quotes like below that contributed to the "blasting" (which really was just posting disagreeing opinions)

Originally Posted by bcpape
The 7.3's actually got their start back in the early 80's. It was the 6.9 then, but the same block and engine. The 7.3 displacement came later to accomodate Turbo Charging. They ran that engine for OVER 20 YEARS!! They dropped the 6.0L after how many years? 4? Nuff said...

Last edited by bismic; 06-15-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 06-15-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bcpape View Post
Here is my position; We all paid a premium for the diesel option, even if we bought used. When I pay a premium for something, I expect something in return. In the case of a diesel engine, I expect durability, performance when towing and better mileage. I don't think that's unreasonable. When an engine manufacturer produces an engine that promises these things and does not fulfill, disappointment and anger set it.
I usually try to stay away from these "My opinion of the 6.0" threads, but I agree with your approach to this. I agree that when you pay $7k for a diesel engine option you absolutely have the right to expect durability straight from the factory without having to spend thousands on monitoring systems and modifications.

That being said, I completely understand when a 6.0 owner takes offense to a 6.0 bashing thread. I love my 7.3, so when I read people bashing the 7.3 for being slow it gets under my skin a little, although I never feel the need to respond with an angry post; I just go to the next thread.

I feel bad for some of the guys that come on this forum a little hot after their 6.0 let them down, and they start a thread about it. They usually get called a troll and chased away. What's so wrong with being angry when a vehicle you have invested thousands of dollars in disappoints you? Everybody deserves the right to vent every now and then...JMO
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Old 06-16-2012, 05:48 AM
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Just reading....i own both and like both. I have put 190k on my 7.3, it now has 308k on it. It flooded at 242k in 05 in a hurricane. It cranks up today, and I use it. I have put about 500 mi on my 6.0, it has 168k on it, it's been sitting in my drive since november. It needs an injector and an oil cooler. But I was amazed how it ran and the ride, I plan on fixing it.

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Old 06-16-2012, 07:32 AM
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There is a guy on that "other forum" that just turned over 500k miles - no major problems, ever. He does have a chirp and he thinks it might be serious enough to keep him from hitting the 60ok mile mark. Not bad for "junk" - LOL. Lots of knowledgeable folks stating that the "lack of consistency" in the quality of parts and assemle is the key issue. I tend to agree with that, even though I do believe there are a number of MINOR design issues. There is no such thing as "fluke reliability". If a design is truly junk, then there is no amount of luck that will make any of them last 500k miles.

This theory explains why there are so many good ones and also why there are so many complaints (along w/ lack of proper maintenance, unwise mods, lack of mechanic and owner understanding early on, etc).

I like southend's post. I too have both and at 111k miles w/ mine, it is (by far) a better truck than my 7.3L (and I love the 7.3L once it got the suncoast tranny installed).

IMO, if I think I had a piece of junk, I would get rid of it. I do understand venting for sure but I just don't understand hanging on to something you hate.

IMO the posts that call the 6.0L's junk are a big help for guy's like me. I will be most likely be buying a low mileage 2007 model year soon and will probably get a good deal on it from someone that thinks they have junk.

Now - I don't see how this post can be called "blasting", but I am sure it will seem that way to a few.
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Old 06-16-2012, 08:25 AM
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I have a few 6.0 L and made the decsion a few years back to stay with them.The reason being is that if everyone keeps bashing them I get to pick them up for a fraction of the cost of new ones and I can at any piont scrape one for parts.The maintanence on them is key along with a few mods found on here to make them durable.My first 6.0 bit the dust at about 250,000 km the next at 350,000 km so for $55g each did I get my moneys worth HELL YA
My trucks all have had issues and I fixed them and some are work in progress but I love the 6.0 and have nothing but praise for the 6.0 even with its pitfalls.My trucks have lead a hard life but are the toughest around and can give anything a run for its money on any given day.This is just my 2 cents on the beasts.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:35 AM
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A big part of the problem with the 6.0 is THE FORD DEARLERSHIPS DON'T KNOW HOW TO MAINTAIN THEM. So guys like bcpape get all indignant when they get on a forum and start whining about what a piece of junk the 6.0 is and how they meticulously maintained it by taking it to the dealership and having their suggested maintenance done there and in response get blast by people that understand having a Ford dealership maintain a 6.0 is a recipe for disaster.

My response here is not to single out bcpape and flame him for his post above but pretty much a response to all such posts by people like him that feel the need to come on a 6.0 enthusiasts forum to p1ss and moan about what a piece of junk the 6.0 is. They think they know something about the 6.0 and have treated it well by servicing ad Ford recommended intervals at the Dealership using Ford recommended products.

There are 2 differing sets of issues with the 6.0 as I see it. One set is design related and is the result of EPA requirements demanded and the need to comply without adequate r&d time for proper solution development. Yes that is the root evil for the egr setup that is a major issue with the 6.0 and not so much Navistar's fault but the result of inadequate time to comply set down by the EPA. We continue to be plagued by this problem with DPF's and now exhaust fluid for god's sake. Can blinker fluid be far behind lol. If you take this stupid stuff off of these diesels their dependability/reliability and performance go up considerably. The 7.3 went by the wayside because there was just no way to make that engine compliant with these new EPA standards.

The second set of issues with the 6.0 revolves around the fact that Ford tech's for the most part don't know how to maintain the 6.0 and Ford chose to use the wrong products in these motors by choosing G-05 coolant because it standardized coolant across product lines and saved them money in spite of the fact that this is not what Navistar recommends or uses and is not the best choice for a diesel. This has contributed to the oil cooler/egr cooler problems. This IS Ford's fault and responsibility. Ford's use and recommendation of 15w40 dino oil and 7500 mile OCI's is another problem. Yes the severe duty recommendation is 5k miles but most people don't understand that stop and go urban traffic is considered severe use. It is actually easier on the engine to haul 12k loads down the Interstate every day than run around town like many of these truck do. This is directly responsible for the large number of injector stiction issues in the 6.0 and once again Ford's fault.

Then there is the misconception by people like bcpape that hod rodding the 6.0 is responsible for the bad rep of the 6.0 and should be left to old GTO's. This one really gives me a laugh because a good SCT tune on an otherwise stock 6.0 is actually better than the factory tune and can add mileage, performance, and reliability to the 6.0. And then there is the misconception that babying their truck and driving it easy is somehow good for it when you actually need to run it hard to exercise the turbo or the result is it soots up and the vgt vanes in the turbo stick and the turbo either has to be torn apart and cleaned or replaced.

I didn't know much about the 6.0 when I bought my truck. Never the less I did know that the factory monitoring was insufficient for a diesel and the first thing I did when I got my truck was purchase an Edge Insight so that I could adequately monitor what was going on with my truck. I then drained the oil and switched it over to synthetic 5w40 and installed a bypass filter. I got online and started hanging out in the Powerstroke forums and started to educate myself as completely as I could on the ins and out of the 6.0. So I dumped the G-05 coolant and switched to ELC. I got an SCT tuner and some custom tunes and drove my truck with enthusiasm. Before it ran out of warranty I had the head gaskets changed and ARP studs installed, deleted the EGR, and replaced the FICM. Preventive measures all.

I have had my 2005 6.0 for over 4 years now. I continue to "hot rod" my truck and expect to have it pushing 600rwhp very shortly. It has been in the 420-450rwhp range for most of the 4 years I have owned it. It has never left me stranded. It has never come home on a hook. I have never lost an egr cooler or oil cooler. I have never had to replace an injector. I do my own maintenance in accordance to what my own research and experience tells me backed by Used Oil Analysis reports. I preemptively dealt with what issues the 6.0 is known for. I drive it hard and I maintain it the way it should be maintained not by dropping it of at the dealer at their specified intervals and blindly letting the have their way with it. My 6.0 is fast, reliable, and a joy to drive. I jump in it without hesitation to take it anywhere and it has never let me down.

So I have little tolerance for those who jump on the forum with no post history after their 6.0 has broken down to complain about what a piece of junk it is and blah, blah, blah. It is a 10 year old design, out of production for 5 years. All of it's short comings known, all of the fixes documented. To those who do their research after the fact I say get over it. At this point it's on you. Do what needs to be done and you'll have a great truck. But don't come whining at what a piece of junk the 6.0 is because you didn't do your homework and it has bitten you in the azz. I for one know better. I am not alone.
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Old 06-16-2012, 09:49 AM
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Well said SVT. I don't like Facebook much but I wish we had the "like" button for posts like yours.
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Old 06-16-2012, 10:48 AM
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That is one hell of a post Mitch, really made me think and appreciate my 6.0 so much more as well as all of you guys on here that she helped me get my 6.0 up to spec. Everything you said is spot on




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