Graphite powder and VGT vane lubrication? - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
Powerstroke.org is the premier Diesel Truck Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Powerstroke Techie

 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sassamansville, Pa
Posts: 9,718
Thanks: 87
Thanked 186 Times in 149 Posts
Feedback Score: 3 reviews
Graphite powder and VGT vane lubrication?

Has anybody tried using graphite powder after a VGT cleaning to help with keeping the vanes lubricated?

I know that graphite and aluminum don't mix well when moisture is a issue (oxidizes the aluminum), but the turbine wheel don't see any moisture.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2  
Old 07-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Compression Ignition Addict
 

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: wichita ks
Posts: 971
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Good idea! I would like to know about this as well. I think I read a TSB that said NOT to use anti-seize. I am guessing this is for the same reason you don’t use to much oil on a gun. The lube just draws crud into the moving parts, but I don’t see that problem with graphite. Graphite should be stable at very high temperatures as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3  
Old 07-08-2011, 06:41 PM
Premium Member
 

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Posts: 581
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilpooh View Post
Has anybody tried using graphite powder after a VGT cleaning to help with keeping the vanes lubricated?

I know that graphite and aluminum don't mix well when moisture is a issue (oxidizes the aluminum), but the turbine wheel don't see any moisture.
I like the idea but how how will it handle the temps?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4  
Old 07-08-2011, 06:55 PM
Powerstroke Techie

 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sassamansville, Pa
Posts: 9,718
Thanks: 87
Thanked 186 Times in 149 Posts
Feedback Score: 3 reviews
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertSmoker View Post
I like the idea but how how will it handle the temps?
Hi-temp graphite powder can handle up to 2400*.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5  
Old 07-09-2011, 04:41 AM
Compression Ignition Addict
 

Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego
Posts: 271
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
There IS moisture on the turbo vane area, when it cools down. The cooling attracts moisture...........
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6  
Old 07-09-2011, 10:54 AM
Serving Our Country!
 

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Clinton, MS
Posts: 634
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Any lubrication, dry or wet, on the VGT vanes is an idea with one inevitable consequence and it is the same consequence as with inadequate turbo demand; the vanes seize. The reason new flash memory updates from Ford, and from custom tune writers, include non-demand VGT cycling at idle is to reduce the potential of seizing.

An alternative for an evolved VGT could include lubricated sealed bearings/near-frictionless bushing for the VGT vanes such as for the turboshaft itself but these bearings/bushings would have to handle from five to seven times the heat loading of the turboshaft's and the challenges of high-temperature shutdown similarly addressed. Of course a lubrication system (material based rather than petroleum/chemical based) subjected to these temperatures is space age...literally...such a system is used on the main engines of the Space Shuttles among other space lift platforms.

I do not recommend using graphite on the VGT vanes...leave it bone-dry.

Jonathan
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7  
Old 07-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Powerstroke Techie

 

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Sassamansville, Pa
Posts: 9,718
Thanks: 87
Thanked 186 Times in 149 Posts
Feedback Score: 3 reviews
Yhea, I was just thinking out loud, we have graphite power laying around the shop we use for some of our machinery/press fits, I also researched the Boron Nitrite Powder (HBN) which seems to be a really good dry lubricant without the side effects of moisture.

If these dry lubricants can handle the heat and provide some sort of lube for the vanes, I figured it couldn't hurt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8  
Old 07-09-2011, 02:30 PM
Compression Ignition Addict
 

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Deerfield, VA
Posts: 338
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
I cleaned my turbo and used anti-seize with no issues. I tend to trust International more on the workings of that engine than FORD. Can anyone say "Premium Gold Coolant"? The IH turbo overhaul video I watched showed them using the anti-seize. I didn't slather it all over the place either, just a film on the pins, unison ring, and vanes.

Plus I refuse to have the updated PCM strategy installed, I've heard horror stories of people getting 14 mpg after the flash, my flash is original, my mileage, 19-20 mpg average. If it ain't "broke" don't fix it. I do once in a while hold it in third and boot it to 4K rpms as my diesel tech suggested.
Hey it works, original turbo, 145K miles, truck runs like a bear.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9  
Old 07-10-2011, 09:39 AM
Serving Our Country!
 

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Clinton, MS
Posts: 634
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
International has/had an "UpTime Program" for maintaining fleet equipment. I know of no IH "UpTime Program" that calls for anti-seize or any dry or wet lubricant, anti-seize being clearly a wet lubricant (it is typically - not always - composed of grease, oil, talc, lime, copper or various other metals like molybdenum). I am very interested though if there is such a IH regimen. I suspect though that what is ascribed to IH here is more likely anecdotal practice rather than an officially documented procedure. That does not invalidate it - to be absolutely clear, I am not attempting to cast doubt that such is the case - but it is important to understand the anecdotal practice's foundation usually a certain operational usage condition or ad-hoc service interval (for example, a turbo rebuild at 50,000-mile intervals...not specifically a manufacturer service item).

It is absolutely true that IH opted for a superior grade of coolant than Ford but it is quite disingenuous to speculate that Premium Gold Coolant on its own was a cause of failures; the fact that it can't provide adequate protection for a sustained period - specifically the manufacturer's service interval of 100,000-miles - IS a valid criticism. All nitrite-based coolants quickly deplete the chemical additives (some would say that out of the bottle the coolant is at the industry minimum accepted threshold of 800ppm which is why Ford specifically provides a recharge pack VC-8). The IH "UpTime Program" calls for use of silicate-free, carboxylate-based coolant (which still has nitrites but the carboxylates hold the nitrite concentration stable for a longer period). Furthermore, the rigor of coolant testing is/was identified as paramount and finally the importance of avoiding entrained air during coolant service intervals is/was given special highlight.

The concern about PCM strategy is similarly less than fully accurate as the benefits of the turbo vane adjustment may be incorporated with custom tuning without the undesired consequence of reduced fuel economy that is an accompanying trait from a Ford flash update.

Fully disclosing aside (which is important), I think in most cases - I can think of few instances where the opposite would be valid - no lubrication of the VGT vane will provide superior long-term turbo operational efficiency than the called-for demand of high turbo boost as well as low turbo boost and intermediate turbo boost...simplistically, running the turbo vanes through their full range of motion on a regular basis.

Run it like you stole it. Cost...a few bucks for the go-juice (you deserve it, you know it - and it's fun!).

Jonathan

Last edited by howell_jd; 07-10-2011 at 09:50 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
Garage Plus, Vendor Tools vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

vB.Sponsors