Graphite powder and VGT vane lubrication? - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum

 
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post #1 of 9 Old 07-08-2011, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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Graphite powder and VGT vane lubrication?

Has anybody tried using graphite powder after a VGT cleaning to help with keeping the vanes lubricated?

I know that graphite and aluminum don't mix well when moisture is a issue (oxidizes the aluminum), but the turbine wheel don't see any moisture.

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post #2 of 9 Old 07-08-2011, 05:16 PM
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Good idea! I would like to know about this as well. I think I read a TSB that said NOT to use anti-seize. I am guessing this is for the same reason you don’t use to much oil on a gun. The lube just draws crud into the moving parts, but I don’t see that problem with graphite. Graphite should be stable at very high temperatures as well.
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post #3 of 9 Old 07-08-2011, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilpooh View Post
Has anybody tried using graphite powder after a VGT cleaning to help with keeping the vanes lubricated?

I know that graphite and aluminum don't mix well when moisture is a issue (oxidizes the aluminum), but the turbine wheel don't see any moisture.
I like the idea but how how will it handle the temps?

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post #4 of 9 Old 07-08-2011, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DesertSmoker View Post
I like the idea but how how will it handle the temps?
Hi-temp graphite powder can handle up to 2400*.

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post #5 of 9 Old 07-09-2011, 04:41 AM
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There IS moisture on the turbo vane area, when it cools down. The cooling attracts moisture...........
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post #6 of 9 Old 07-09-2011, 10:54 AM
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Any lubrication, dry or wet, on the VGT vanes is an idea with one inevitable consequence and it is the same consequence as with inadequate turbo demand; the vanes seize. The reason new flash memory updates from Ford, and from custom tune writers, include non-demand VGT cycling at idle is to reduce the potential of seizing.

An alternative for an evolved VGT could include lubricated sealed bearings/near-frictionless bushing for the VGT vanes such as for the turboshaft itself but these bearings/bushings would have to handle from five to seven times the heat loading of the turboshaft's and the challenges of high-temperature shutdown similarly addressed. Of course a lubrication system (material based rather than petroleum/chemical based) subjected to these temperatures is space age...literally...such a system is used on the main engines of the Space Shuttles among other space lift platforms.

I do not recommend using graphite on the VGT vanes...leave it bone-dry.

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post #7 of 9 Old 07-09-2011, 11:13 AM Thread Starter
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Yhea, I was just thinking out loud, we have graphite power laying around the shop we use for some of our machinery/press fits, I also researched the Boron Nitrite Powder (HBN) which seems to be a really good dry lubricant without the side effects of moisture.

If these dry lubricants can handle the heat and provide some sort of lube for the vanes, I figured it couldn't hurt.

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post #8 of 9 Old 07-09-2011, 02:30 PM
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I cleaned my turbo and used anti-seize with no issues. I tend to trust International more on the workings of that engine than FORD. Can anyone say "Premium Gold Coolant"? The IH turbo overhaul video I watched showed them using the anti-seize. I didn't slather it all over the place either, just a film on the pins, unison ring, and vanes.

Plus I refuse to have the updated PCM strategy installed, I've heard horror stories of people getting 14 mpg after the flash, my flash is original, my mileage, 19-20 mpg average. If it ain't "broke" don't fix it. I do once in a while hold it in third and boot it to 4K rpms as my diesel tech suggested.
Hey it works, original turbo, 145K miles, truck runs like a bear.

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post #9 of 9 Old 07-10-2011, 09:39 AM
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International has/had an "UpTime Program" for maintaining fleet equipment. I know of no IH "UpTime Program" that calls for anti-seize or any dry or wet lubricant, anti-seize being clearly a wet lubricant (it is typically - not always - composed of grease, oil, talc, lime, copper or various other metals like molybdenum). I am very interested though if there is such a IH regimen. I suspect though that what is ascribed to IH here is more likely anecdotal practice rather than an officially documented procedure. That does not invalidate it - to be absolutely clear, I am not attempting to cast doubt that such is the case - but it is important to understand the anecdotal practice's foundation usually a certain operational usage condition or ad-hoc service interval (for example, a turbo rebuild at 50,000-mile intervals...not specifically a manufacturer service item).

It is absolutely true that IH opted for a superior grade of coolant than Ford but it is quite disingenuous to speculate that Premium Gold Coolant on its own was a cause of failures; the fact that it can't provide adequate protection for a sustained period - specifically the manufacturer's service interval of 100,000-miles - IS a valid criticism. All nitrite-based coolants quickly deplete the chemical additives (some would say that out of the bottle the coolant is at the industry minimum accepted threshold of 800ppm which is why Ford specifically provides a recharge pack VC-8). The IH "UpTime Program" calls for use of silicate-free, carboxylate-based coolant (which still has nitrites but the carboxylates hold the nitrite concentration stable for a longer period). Furthermore, the rigor of coolant testing is/was identified as paramount and finally the importance of avoiding entrained air during coolant service intervals is/was given special highlight.

The concern about PCM strategy is similarly less than fully accurate as the benefits of the turbo vane adjustment may be incorporated with custom tuning without the undesired consequence of reduced fuel economy that is an accompanying trait from a Ford flash update.

Fully disclosing aside (which is important), I think in most cases - I can think of few instances where the opposite would be valid - no lubrication of the VGT vane will provide superior long-term turbo operational efficiency than the called-for demand of high turbo boost as well as low turbo boost and intermediate turbo boost...simplistically, running the turbo vanes through their full range of motion on a regular basis.

Run it like you stole it. Cost...a few bucks for the go-juice (you deserve it, you know it - and it's fun!).

Jonathan

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Last edited by howell_jd; 07-10-2011 at 09:50 AM.
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