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Old 06-21-2011, 06:55 AM
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The 6.0L that loves to stick it to me

This truck is quite the bastard in the way of trying the patience of its owners and those who work on it. For whatever reason, it's fairly dead set on not wanting to run successfully...Here's a run down of the events that have transpired thus far...

Initial Purchase:
Purchased truck used with 32K. Was fresh off lease by a guy who drove it to work and back every day

Major Failure I:
This failure was a failed head gasket. It resulted in the head gaskets being redone under warranty by Ford. The heads were not studded at this time. This occurred at roughly 80k miles

Major Failure II:
This failure was the left bank of injectors going bad. We were advised to replace all injectors in the bank despite only one being bad. This occurred at roughly 85k miles

Major Failure III:
This failure was the right bank of injectors going bad. We again replaced all injectors in that bank. This occurred at roughly 91k.

Major Failure IV:
This failure was a blown head gasket. This was done out of warranty and necessitated replacing the heads with remanufactured as the heads were determined to be cracked and unusable. This happened 92K. At this point, we studded the heads with ARP hardware, installed Black Onyx gaskets, replaced all the parts on the engine pertaining to any upgrades had done (Oil Pickups, HFCM drain plug, Turbo pipes, Fuel Pressure Spring upgrade, 6.4L banjo bolts, etc.) We also installed a coolant filter, bypass oil filtration, and an Edge Insight monitor with pyrometer.

Major Failure V:
This failure resulted in the degas bottle being a mixture of coolant and anti-freeze. The cause for this failure has not been determined 100%, but it seems as though it's either a failed injector cup/seal or a cracked head. Given the attention to detail in the remanufacturing process and decking process, it seems very unlikely to us that the heads are cracked, especially with only 5000 miles on them, AND the low temperatures we noticed in operation related to ECT, EOT and EGT. We do acknowledge our EOT/ECT Delta is higher than it should be, which could suggest the oil cooler is plugging, which we would be inclined to rectify. Nonetheless, as the truck sits now with 97k miles on it, 5K of which are on the new, studded heads/gaskets, it just seems very unlikely the heads would crack.

So...that's where it's at. We're looking for professional opinions on this, as Ford is somewhat useless in providing insight into it beyond the scope of their factory-approved regimen in handling these things. If it's possible to avoid rebuilding the motor entirely, we're obviously all for that!

We're all ears as to thoughts/opinion on what best to do. There is some apprehension on behalf of the owner to use the current short block, as it's almost as though there exists an issue with the block that's causing these head issues to occur. The funny thing is in watching the Insight gauge like a hawk, we never got crazy EGT's and while our EOT/ECT delta was higher than should be (averaging around 15), it never got reallyl out of hand. We'll probably end up replacing the oil cooler anyway but none of the temps ever got to the point where cylinder head cracking would be likely...at least from our perspective. It is possible, perhaps, that it is just a cup issue, or that the heads we got were defective. Either way, we're looking for the experts to weigh in on what best to do to diagnose the issue, fix it, and make the truck as bulletproof as possible!

So, gentlemen...insight? I'm praying it's just an injector cup issue...a plausible possibility given the number of times this thing has been apart and put back together. It's just very peculiar that a head would crack with so little mileage and zero abuse on it...obviously defects do happen and as such, the head being cracked is a possibility, but we're looking for insight regardless.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:20 AM
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Major Failure V was it diesel in the cooling system? Where did the heads come from and who built them... Reputable? Was it oil in the cooling system?
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:21 AM
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Back the train up.
Throw some more information in about this.
What year engine? Not the truck it is in, the year engine.
Next, what caused the head gasket failure the first time. Head gaskets are a symptom and not a cause.
What caused them to pop the second time?
How much was machined off the sealing surface of the head? Was the block checked as well?
For failures 2 and 3, do you know what your fuel pressure was previous to those events? Was the underlying cause of those failures addressed or just fix the symptom?

Failiure #5, could this be that since you admit to having a higher than "normal" EOT/ECT delta, that the oil cooler has actually failed and is leaking into the coolant stream?
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:22 AM
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I'm not claiming be be any expert, but I see a couple things. Have you checked your fuel pressure? That'll kill our injectors quick. nothing below 45 PSI at WOT is acceptable. Yea your temps are at 15*, but that means your oil cooler is partially plugged. Do you know that they changed that? An egr delete and ELC swap would help bulletproof the truck. Along with that fuel pressure gauge. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a2elvis View Post
Major Failure V was it diesel in the cooling system? Where did the heads come from and who built them... Reputable? Was it oil in the cooling system?
Heads came from Clearwater Heads in Florida. I spoke w/ the owner of the company and the guy seemed very legit. They move a ton of volume and have all the latest tech in the way of machining/decking capabilities.

No oil in the cooling system. Just diesel.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC F-350 View Post
Back the train up.
Throw some more information in about this.
What year engine? Not the truck it is in, the year engine.
Next, what caused the head gasket failure the first time. Head gaskets are a symptom and not a cause.
What caused them to pop the second time?
How much was machined off the sealing surface of the head? Was the block checked as well?
For failures 2 and 3, do you know what your fuel pressure was previous to those events? Was the underlying cause of those failures addressed or just fix the symptom?

Failiure #5, could this be that since you admit to having a higher than "normal" EOT/ECT delta, that the oil cooler has actually failed and is leaking into the coolant stream?
Ok, one by one...

The truck is a mid-year 05, so I'm assuming the engine is from 05 as well. I don't have the truck nearby but can find out additional information if needbe.

The heads were machined by the company who rebuilt them and then checked again for flatness locally before the heads were installed. No additional machining was done locally as the heads were perfectly flat upon inspection.

Not sure what caused the head gasket failure the first time...this was prior to the EGR system being deleted, and prior to the Insight gauge being installed so its only speculation but I'd be willing to bet flash boiling in the EGR cooler led to the issue.

The second time it occurred was also prior to the EGR system being deleted so Im guessing the cause was the same. Admittedly, the truck is owned by a buddy of mine and I was not driving it at any of the times these failures occurred. I can get more info from him if need be.

No idea on fuel pressure. We're going to be putting the fuel pressure option in for the Insight CS once we get these bigger issues resolved and prior to putting the truck back on the road.

I doubt the cooler has failed to the point of rupturing as what we found in the coolant was diesel, not oil. Either way, the cooler will be repaired.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brieldo View Post
Major Failure V:
This failure resulted in the degas bottle being a mixture of coolant and anti-freeze.
You can see where the confusion comes into play. I misunderstood what exactly you had a mixing of.

The heads could be perfectly flat, but if the block sealing surface isn't......whats the point? I'm sure, or at least hoping, that the installer checked BOTH.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC F-350 View Post
You can see where the confusion comes into play. I misunderstood what exactly you had a mixing of.

The heads could be perfectly flat, but if the block sealing surface isn't......whats the point? I'm sure, or at least hoping, that the installer checked BOTH.
I would certainly hope so. This is part of the reason we're considering getting a new long block and studding it from the get go so as to avoid any further issues which could be caused by this. Now, that said, naturally, the thing to do would be to check the flatness after the truck is torn apart.

In addition, though less statistically probable, it's still possible it's merely an injector cup issue causing this fuel in the coolant scenario.
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Old 06-21-2011, 07:37 PM
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Evening bump!
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