I am trying to get a baseline price in my brain on what it would take to get to 600 HP....Or how much HP can you make without having to build the tranny up to support it?
I would like it to still be a everyday driver but with some more punch!
Any thoughts or set ups from others on here with Dyno numbers etc??
550 is about the limit(ish) as to what folks get to and run for awhile before they start having trans issues. Rule of thumb : anything over 500hp, start building the savings account for a trans.
Looking at your sig it looks like you've got a good foundation, so next step up to get close to 600 is going to be some bigger injectors and a bigger turbo. A turbo and set of sticks is going to run around $3k.
Also, if you haven't yet, changing out the gears to help turn those 37s will get you some extra punch, and actually lower some strain on the trans and engine. Front and rear gears, bearing kits, and install will probably be around $1200.
Check out the thread listed above for some good dyno numbers (and he just blew his transmission yesterday BTW), I'll have mine on the rollers in the beginning of September.
Nighthawk. ..thanks for the complement on the truck!
Master chase....When I bought the truck everything in my signature was done to it....I know when we talked he said he did the head gaskets but didn't mill them due to personal preference.....
What does a head gasket job run in parts and labor if I had a shop do it? I will assume when that is being done it would be a good time for a turbo and sticks...
Depends on what you're using is for, mainly towing or mainly highway driving. Probably 4:30 or 4:56's. @j.mo just put 4:56's in his truck. As for head gaskets, when I did mine myself I spent about 2k in parts. That included studs, oil cooler, head gasket kit that comes with new standpipes, all gaskets and seals to do it, 2 injectors, fluids, filters, egr delete, 6.4 pushrods, banjo bolts, milling the heads, and I'm sure I'm forgetting something. I did the work myself so I didn't pay any labor obviously. @toren302 may be able to give you a better idea
I am having head gaskets, studs, pushrods, oil pan, EGT installed & updates done to my 2003 as we speak at a local shop. I am up to $2100 in parts that I supplied & $2800 in labor plus whatever the machine work on the heads costs me. Seems like $5k-$6k is the average around here for head gaskets & studs done in a shop but YMMV, for reference I'm in NH & the North East is a little more expensive than other areas of the country.......
Ok....so you bought it that way......well I'm at least glad to hear you didn't waste your money on the stud job, but then again I suppose at this point it's not really a waste since they're not leaking, but either way YES, the heads should have been milled flat. A very flat, very clean surface is the key to a long lasting, high HP handling head job.....that's engine building 101.
A shop will charge anywhere from $3500-$7500 on a head and stud job depending on:
What parts still may need updated (shouldn't need any if it all was done at the last job but who knows)
What parts can be re-used (the studs can be re-used a couple times IF they weren't overtorqued)
Condition of heads upon removal (sometimes they crack)
Machining costs
Their shop rate
Also, IMO, since you're starting to scratch the "I want more power" itch, you may also look into having the heads o-ringed. It's not 100% necessary for your goals now, but it's extra insurance later should you want to build up more without tearing into it again.
Given that you bought the truck that way I'd be curious if it was geared already so my initial recommendation may be off depending on what the PO did. Like Thurston said above, your optimal gear ratio is going to depend on how you use your truck. How often and how heavy do you tow vs. how fast do you want to go vs. how hard do you want to work the truck. Do you find yourself cruising at 70-80mph normally? Do you tow often, but pretty light (sub 10k lbs?), or heavy? Gear ratios just determine the RPM the engine will be at, at a specific speed.......For a truck with 37s that tows occasionally, but is mainly a DD and weekend warrior, I'd be looking at either a 4.10 option or a 4.30 at max......4.56 is a little to low for my taste.
BTW Fish, you're pretty "on", looks like the OP is in Connecticut.
Assuming @6.0Stroker (Mike) backs his numbers up at H4H he will prove 500 is possible with stock fuel and air with just:hehe: a cam upgrade.
As far as costs go, We are 5800 out the door for a Stud job. Most of the shops out here are now NOT doing these unless customers ok flow testing the injectors as well. Most shops are 7500+ around here for a stud job. Also there is a PROPER way to do these jobs, and a lot of shops DONT!!! Its one of those research pays off situation.
Hopefully the next Dyno looks the same.. maybe even get some TQ numbers. That is also before the ported intake manifold. Don't think that will gain me HP but it does help with airflow and should be a good addition to the cam upgrade. So we will see.
I am running 4.30's in mine. I am more then happy with them and I am still running a 35" tire. I swapped em so when these are bald I can go to a 37" tire
^^^^ is this the guy with 500hp on "stock fuel and air"? From the sig it looks like 155s and 2003 turbo with billet wheel? That is certainly not "stock"... but maybe it is for a different truck.
As to date no one has ever "broken" 500hp on stock injectors (even with big air upgrades). At least not anyone that has backed it up at the track. I have seen some dynos "barely" break into the 500hp mark and a few CRAZY dyno numbers like over 600hp on stock injectors. But NO ONE has gone to the track yet to back them up.
Most everyone that has tried, ended up with around 450-475hp. But to be honest your "butt dyno" probably cant tell the difference between 475 and 500hp.
Well making injectors bigger and adding a billet wheel are definitely performance upgrades by anyone's standards LOL. Stock is stock, upgraded is upgraded. You are not hitting 500hp on "stock fuel and air". You are hitting 500hp and "slightly upgraded fuel and air". Which makes perfect sense.
Stock injectors and turbo are very well known for hitting 425-460hp (2003 turbos make the most power and are the biggest "stock turbo")
Add 155cc injectors (about 20cc more than stock, should add around 20-60hp)
Add a billet wheel (should add about 5-10hp)
Add a cam (who knows??? maybe around 10-20hp)
You now have enough performance upgrades to push a truck into the 500hp range easily.
About the "600hp" goal. There are literally 100s of combos that you can do to hit that. The more supporting mods you add, the "better" your 600hp setup will be.
Simply adding 190-205cc injectors with a good stage 2 vgt turbo or 64mm non-vgt turbo should get right around 600hp. Even on stock fuel, tranny, etc... but that is not going to last very long and will not be reliable long term.
Here is what I recommend MINIMUM for a "reliable" set that just might "barely" 600hp (average 550-600hp)
Built Fuel system
190cc injectors (I prefer 190/30)
KC stage 2 turbo
GOOD TUNING
Built Tranny
Head Studs/updates/normal bulletproof stuff
Here are the supporting mods that I HIGHLY RECOMMEND because they will make the setup last longer, spool faster, run cooler, tow better... and add few HP. (avg 575-625hp)
Upgraded air filter (no limit is the best IMO)
Upgraded intercooler
Metal hot side CAC tube
Ported intake manifold
Upgraded Cam
Bump up to 205s and KC stage 3 turbo and you should be around 600-650hp
Bump up to S369 and you should be in the 625-675hp range
155/stock really aren't that big of a fuel upgrade if at all really. The 03 snail is still a stock sized turbo by every means with a billet wheel that if you believe DS adds a ton of power, but most really just see a drop in EGT. They aren't by any means a turbo upgrade in my opinion. Just better for spool and temp. My post was more to tout the cam upgrade helping make a fairly "stock" 6.0 hit 500, and like I said "IF" he backs it up in Sept. then I will believe the cam is helping more then the other 2 for sure.
155s are for sure an upgrade. "arent that big of a fuel upgrade" is open to interpretation. Lets me more exact. Stock injectors are 135cc... 155cc injectors are 15% bigger than stock. Which means they are capable of about 15% MORE HP.
40" tires are only about 15% bigger than 35" tires
A 68mm turbo is only about 15% bigger than a stock 59mm turbo
500hp is only 15% more than 425hp
205cc injectors are only about 15% bigger than 175cc injectors
175cc injectors are only 15% bigger than 155cc injectors
Bigger is bigger
135cc injectors are capable of around 425-475hp
155cc injectors are capable of around 480-525hp
175cc injectors are capable of around 530-580hp
etc
etc
We can debate the advantages of billet wheels later. I don't believe ANY of them add "a ton of power". But it all adds up.
I love cams... but they are not going to increase HP 15% like 155cc injectors will when compared to stock injectors. I bet you $100 that if you swap those 155cc injectors back down to stock then you will end up with about 425-475hp.
So yes. I 100% agree with you that a truck with 15% larger injectors than stock, an upgraded billet wheel that may or may not add "a ton of power", and an upgraded cam is good for around 500hp... which is about 15% more than a stock truck... but lets not go claiming 500hp on stock fuel and stock air.
Also...not to start a debate, but I would be willing to bet that the camshaft would net more than 15% when in its powerband. Maximizing valve train geometry ALWAYS nets big gains. Dare I say more bang for the buck then a set of injectors (when talking 155s):look: The stock nozzles really kill the gains that those 155s could make.
I am not sure how you think stock nozzles "kill the gains" of 155s? It is very common knowledge that stock nozzles can dump 175cc... maybe even 190cc. More fuel makes more power. Heck I made 540hp with 175/stock like 3 or 4 years ago before all these great advancements in tuning/turbos/mods... which is right in line with what 175s make. Guys have been making 500+ hp with 155/stock for YEARS. This is not brand new information. LOTS OF OTHER GUYS have proven over the years that larger body injectors make more power even with stock nozzles. Having bigger nozzles will help for sure... but that is not to say that you cannot make power with stock nozzles.
We could also debate the fact that most 155/stock injectors are really just 175/stock... this has been confirmed a couple different injector builders.
In our powerstroke world no one has EVER shown cams to make a significant gain. Maybe run a little cooler, spool a little faster, but not much in way of "gains". That is not to say that they don't do it. But anyone running a cam seems to make about the same power as someone else with the same setup on stock cam. I have searched long and hard for this info, started a bunch of threads, and even talked to many cam builders. NO SUCH DATA EXISTS.
I would be willing to make a friendly wager against your theory... I am not even sure how we would arrange it... we could even do it at your shop. Take a 100% stock truck. I mean no billet wheels, no upgraded HPOPs, stock turbo, stock air filter, etc... I am ok with headstuds/bulletproofing it.
We will put the "wasteful" injectors with stock nozzles in it. Heck as long as stock nozzles net such little gains lets go with 205/stock. We will dyno the truck and push it to the limits. Then swap back to 100% stock injectors and swap in any cam you want and dyno the 100% stock truck with just the upgraded cam. Then compare the dyno charts.
Yah what's funny is I just read the 32 texts I have from you jokers about rally, Kily's excuses, and the dyno numbers. I was just thinking about why cam swaps are so common and what they net. Funny you said the same thing.
I will add that I put the stg2 in my motor and mikes to eliminate the egr cut profile. Not to net gains other then (hopefully) longer lifter life and smoother high rpm use.
And I was under the impression stock nozzles kill the 155-175 injectors because you may have more fuel... but your not getting it into the cylinder any faster or different then a stock setup as you are running stock nozzles..
But I'm not an expert... I'm just here putting some fuel on the fire :wall:
Like I said cam profiles determine when HP is kicked in... when you get a bigger lift cam its not going to magically shove more air in the motor LMFAO!!! when you change the size of the lobe you are changing when the valves open and close based on crank and cam location... SOOOOOO once again how does this increase HP! If you dont believe me then tear apart you 6blow and throw a cam in it and maybe net like 5-10 hp somewhere else in your HP curve... CONGRADULATIONS LMAO!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
That's what I was going for. You change a cam.. most likely with lift AND duration... leave the valve open longer.. get more air..
More air should give you more power.. just like more fuel..
Now.. match that... a wicked wheel in the '03 turbo, with a ported intake, plugged spill ports for more fuel, and a cam upgrade with different lift and duration..
You just created more fuel flowing combine with more efficiently flowing air.. your gonna get better performance...
I honestly don't believe any one thing is going to net you big HP gains... it's the part of making sure you pick the right parts that work together.
And I think that is what Toren was getting at. Anyone can slap in big injectors and a big turbo and gain HP. We got to 500HP with basic upgrades anyone can do when rebuilding a motor without spending thousands of dollars on large injectors/turbo.
That's exactly why is said in my other post it only makes sense to do this if your going to build the motor anyway... Of course you are going to see a small gain (a very small gain still sticking with my 10-15hp max), but is that gain really going to be worth tearing your motor down to the cam not to mention swamping out a camshaft that's most likely in good working order for 600-1000$ camshaft..... This is borderline effin stupid unless you do a full engine build because its just not worth it PERIOD
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