Living where I do, we get on average over 100 inches of snow a year. The skinnier a tire is, the higher the pressure point is. I'm looking for the tallest and most narrow tire I can fit under my F250 with a 2.5" leveling kit. Rim size isn't as big of a factor because my intentions are to purchase a set of OEM takeoffs. Currently I have 20x8" OEM wheels and tires. I love the way they look as I think it gives my truck a more up to date appearance. They stand 34.1" tall. I'm not sure how wide they are? My future intentions are to have a set of 17"-18" wheels with 35"-37" Toyo RTs. I had planned on selling the OEM 20x8s to help pay for either my winter set or summer set.
I thought I found the perfect tire, a Mastercraft MSR in LT235/80R17 which is 9" wide, but unfortunately only about 31" tall. With my intentions being a 35"-37" filling the wheelwells, I think this would look atrocious.
What are you guys using for a snow tire or similar? What's the size of both your tire and rim? What's the tallest snow rated tire I can get that isn't super wide? I realize I'm not going to be able to find a 9" wide tire, but maybe an 11" at the widest?
The tire guy I normally go to suggested keeping the 20s and throwing snows on them for slightly more than it wold cost for the aforementioned Mastercraft. I figured if I sold the 20s it would be a wash for the winter set and then I could spend extra on my summer set.
Suggestions please?
Edit:
1. I am going to buy 17"-18" OEM wheels to fit a set of winter/snow tires to run in the winter.
2. I may sell my 20" OEM wheels because they still have value and will pay for the winter set or nix # 1 and put snow tires on them.
3. If I sell the 20s, I will roughly break even therefore allowing myself to purchase a dedicated good weather 17"-18" polished aluminum wheel and put 35"-37" Toyo RTs on them, not having to worry about corrosion from the salt they use extensively here.
I plow with my setup and rock them all year round...never had any issues and my tires are wide. This is with about 450-500lbs in the bed for weight and a 9' stainless xblade Fisher up front.
Thanks jman37! Your set up looks good! I can see how the extra 4-500 lbs would help. I'd be worried about hydroplaning over some slushy areas on the interstate when traveling. Maybe you haven't experienced any with your tire choice due tread depth?
Around here, things don't shut down just because we got a foot of snow in a few hours. (Not that they do where you live either.) If I need to go down a gravel road or seasonal road for some reason, the wider tire will just float and spin while the skinnier tire will dig down until it gains traction or buries itself. Lol
You aren't going to find many (if any) options in a 9" wide, 35" tire....and none at all in a 37. There's just too much instability to have that much sidewall without a wider footprint to help spread the load and the truck would act like being on wobbly stilts. About the tallest/skinniest I know of that's in production would be a LT255/80R17. It'll limit you on a couple brand options, but that'd put you at about 33.3" high and 10" wide. Also make sure you test fit the 17s on the truck before you mount the tires; most but not all 17" wheels work on a 2005+ truck due to the larger calipers.
18s would open you to few taller options:
LT295/75R18 (35.4 x 11.6)
LT295/70R18 (34.3 x 11.6)
LT285/75R18 (34.8 x 11.2)
but will limit your brand options since not all manufacturers make these. Toyo makes all sizes under the sun, so you'd be covered there, although I don't know what's available in the RT yet.
With 20s, I could only find a handful of options that weren't any better, so I listed the above. Plus, the additional cost up-front for another set of wheels and sensors would pay for itself in a few years from swapping the tires back and forth each winter.....it's around $85 bucks now for a changeover and TPMS reset where I used to work.
I've had these conversations before and you are absolutely correct that the skinnier it is, the more pressure you have to the ground (to hook and give traction). However, with a wider tread profile, you have more contact points and surface area (depending on the tread) on the ground......so a tall & skinny A/T tire may perform worse than a fatter tire with better winter tread. Just food for thought......there's a bunch of tech talk but I don't think anyone has ever reached a point of what's best/has the most impact.
FWIW, I run 35x12.50s and haul my snowmobile trailer over 1000s of miles in the winter (some plowed roads, a lot unplowed) and usually have great traction. I lost quite a bit of ice traction with the STT Pros I'm running now, but for me that's a function of tread design rather than size. I gained traction in loose snow though, since I could chew through it better :nod: Like I said, food for thought.
You aren't going to find many (if any) options in a 9" wide, 35" tire....and none at all in a 37. There's just too much instability to have that much sidewall without a wider footprint to help spread the load and the truck would act like being on wobbly stilts. About the tallest/skinniest I know of that's in production would be a LT255/80R17. It'll limit you on a couple brand options, but that'd put you at about 33.3" high and 10" wide. Also make sure you test fit the 17s on the truck before you mount the tires; most but not all 17" wheels work on a 2005+ truck due to the larger calipers.
18s would open you to few taller options:
LT295/75R18 (35.4 x 11.6)
LT295/70R18 (34.3 x 11.6)
LT285/75R18 (34.8 x 11.2)
but will limit your brand options since not all manufacturers make these. Toyo makes all sizes under the sun, so you'd be covered there, although I don't know what's available in the RT yet.
With 20s, I could only find a handful of options that weren't any better, so I listed the above. Plus, the additional cost up-front for another set of wheels and sensors would pay for itself in a few years from swapping the tires back and forth each winter.....it's around $85 bucks now for a changeover and TPMS reset where I used to work.
I've had these conversations before and you are absolutely correct that the skinnier it is, the more pressure you have to the ground (to hook and give traction). However, with a wider tread profile, you have more contact points and surface area (depending on the tread) on the ground......so a tall & skinny A/T tire may perform worse than a fatter tire with better winter tread. Just food for thought......there's a bunch of tech talk but I don't think anyone has ever reached a point of what's best/has the most impact.
FWIW, I run 35x12.50s and haul my snowmobile trailer over 1000s of miles in the winter (some plowed roads, a lot unplowed) and usually have great traction. I lost quite a bit of ice traction with the STT Pros I'm running now, but for me that's a function of tread design rather than size. I gained traction in loose snow though, since I could chew through it better :nod: Like I said, food for thought.
Thanks nighthawk 285! The 17s I would purchase if I did are OEM wheels from 05+(no TPMS, my truck is an 06 and swapping tires is free plus $40 to balance). I didn't expect to find a 9" wide 35" tall tire aand you given me good reason to believe that an 11"-12" wide tire may be attainable. :thumb: I will do my own research, but do you know if any of the sizes in 18" you listed come in a snow rated tread?
I will be throwing on Studded Nokian Hakkapelittas LT 2s, 275/65 R20s for my winters this year. That said, your best bet isn't to try maximising pressure. Pick a winter tire in your truck's size, and do the chalk test till it wears evenly. All modern winter tires are designed so that grip is maximised when every part of the tread has equal ground pressure, regardless of what that pressure is. If you try to go tall+skinny+high pressure, all you are doing is reducing your maximum load capacity and you wont have any more grip than if you went with the proper tire size for your truck at a lower pressure. Max pressure = winter grip went the way of the dodo bird with the introduction of silica compounds. With newer silica compounds, you are no longer trying to make the snow & ice mould to the shape of your cold/inflexible tire, you are now making your tire mould to the shape of the ground, even at -40. If ground clearance is the concern, then buy the tallest tire you can fit. Quit worrying about width.
Thanks Canadian Mind! When I started this thread, I thought about you. I have quite a bit of experience with the Hakkapelittas, although it's illegal to stud tires here in Michigan. I have used the Bridgestone Blizzaks as well. Snow tires are truly phenomenal in snow and ice compared to A/T or M/T or even all season tread patterns. THIS is what I'm looking for more than a skinnier A/T or all season. Thank you for making me think aabout the fact that both of the last two 18" sets of snow tires I've purchased have been a low profile style and they worked great! :thankyou2:
no stranger to snow I am running a 12.5 wide as once it gets deep enough you arent going to be on asphalt anyways so the ore contact area you have the more traction you are going to get.
my favorite winter tires have been msr courser studded. made by cooper in fact they are coopers same tread lower price. but the studded msr has gotten me through some scary stuff over the years.
i just never found anything that gripped quite as well.
had good luck with hankooks as well but the msr seems to grab better on ice and deep snow.
Thanks John! What size were those Courser MSRs?
I've had studded tires before and I agree, they work incredibly well. I wish I could install a set, that's for sure! I went back and edited my first post hoping it clears up what I'm trying to accomplish. Thanks again guys!
I will be throwing on Studded Nokian Hakkapelittas LT 2s, 275/65 R20s for my winters this year. That said, your best bet isn't to try maximising pressure. Pick a winter tire in your truck's size, and do the chalk test till it wears evenly. All modern winter tires are designed so that grip is maximised when every part of the tread has equal ground pressure, regardless of what that pressure is. If you try to go tall+skinny+high pressure, all you are doing is reducing your maximum load capacity and you wont have any more grip than if you went with the proper tire size for your truck at a lower pressure. Max pressure = winter grip went the way of the dodo bird with the introduction of silica compounds. With newer silica compounds, you are no longer trying to make the snow & ice mould to the shape of your cold/inflexible tire, you are now making your tire mould to the shape of the ground, even at -40. If ground clearance is the concern, then buy the tallest tire you can fit. Quit worrying about width.
no stranger to snow I am running a 12.5 wide as once it gets deep enough you arent going to be on asphalt anyways so the ore contact area you have the more traction you are going to get.
my favorite winter tires have been msr courser studded. made by cooper in fact they are coopers same tread lower price. but the studded msr has gotten me through some scary stuff over the years.
i just never found anything that gripped quite as well.
had good luck with hankooks as well but the msr seems to grab better on ice and deep snow.
Don't focus to much on sizes and focus more on tread. I run a 35x12.50 and have no problems climbing snow mountains and driving on ice covered highways as if it was a sunny summer day.
Thanks Horizon122!
It's more about the optimal setup. The skinnier, the better the contact patch is. Height is for filling the wheelwell and slightly better ground clearance. Tread design is the most important factor. Choosing the best combination of all 3 within the variances is key. The skinniest tire isn't going to be near tall enough. I can't imagine running a 35"-37" during the summer and a 31" during the other half of the year. A 34"-35" through the winter months would be optimal, but not if it's 13" wide. It's good to know you're happy with a 12.5" wide tire.:thumb:
Ha, brain freeze :taze: I knew you didn't have them, then I kept looking at the wheels and thought your truck was a '12 and then instantly assumed you had them again lol. They do work for giving you the updated look!
Yeah an 11-12" is doable for sure. Toyo makes their AT2 and RT in that size, which I believe are both M&S rated....but judging from your posts I'm guessing you want an actual snow tread....I'll check. I really wish that the Blizzaks came in oversize, those are such a great tire. You could also use the Hakkapelittas just without the studs installed...that would give you the benefit of the better rubber and siping/tread pattern, and would keep them legal.
My summer tires are the Toyo AT2 Xtremes in a 285/75 R18 size. Overall 34.8 inches tall and 11.2 inches wide. Makes them as tall as or taller than many actual "35 inch" tires, but an inch narrower.
They do have the M+S symbol, but they are by no means a decent winter tire. Unless it is fresh snow or slush you might as well be driving around on hockey pucks. The only "all terrain" tire that does any good in the winter is the Duratracs, and even they barely mean the standard.
Honestly, there are better winter tires out there than the Hakkas if studs aren't an option. The Hakkas are designed so that the studs provide all the ice traction, and the rubber compounds grip everything else. If you can't run studs you'll want a tire where the rubber was designed for biting into ice. Something like the Michelin X-ice if you can get it for a truck.
The sad thing about stud laws is that the Hakkas have studs that are designed to retract on pavement, which significantly reduces the damaged caused. However, stud laws haven't yet changed to take features like this into account.
I'm going to need new tires by this coming winter anyways. My tire of choice this time around will be Duratrac's. Few of my buddies have those on their fun trucks and they're absolutely awesome. They are pricey though, that's the downfall.
I think you're just overthinking it lol, it's a tire not a engine choice for your rocket. Based on the pic seems like your truck is leveled? I would just throw on a 35x12.50 and call it a day or since you're on a bigger wheel I believe they make a 35x11.xx if you want something not that stuffed, especially since you have mud flaps in the front as those would most likely need to come off with a 12.50's. I do a lot of highway long distance driving mixed with a lot of bad weather and my Fierces have been great, only downside is sizes are very limited (guess they only make them for sizes that truly work and aren't just for show) as the biggest wheel option is a 18 and tallest/widest is a 35x12.50. Now they're about 1/2-3/4 tread left after a year-1/2 and about 20,000 miles and are starting to hum a little on the highway above 70mph but it doesn't bother me.
If you don't want something as aggressive but performs good for all road conditions and reasonable off-road look into Nitto exo-grapplers (they're also coming out with a new tire later this year that looks promising), Toyo RT, ProComp extreme A/T, Goodyear DuraTracs, MT Baja ATZp3. These are a blend of all terrains and mud terrains to give you the best possible from both worlds.
Nah, not over thinking it at all. Unless you have driven a vehicle with dedicated snow tires, tires specifically manufactured for snow and ice then you haven't experienced what real traction is in poor conditions. I see you live in NYC. Do you go upstate near Tug Hill? Well, those conditions are what we encounter every year weeks on end. Two years ago, 15 miles from where I live, they got over 22 feet of snow during the winter. We AVERAGE over 100 inches a year. I'm trying to improve upon my Michelin LTX AT2s which I would take in a heartbeat over the tire I see in your signature. Are those the Fierce brand you're talking about? They look good. I would run them here in the summer no problem. Based on looks of the size of your lugs and lack of siping, I can't see them working well in these conditions day in and day out. There's a reason I don't see big mud terrain or all terrain tires running through the winter months here. Please don't misconstrue my pointed observations for hostility. I have a hard time convincing friends who live just three hours south of me the importance of snow tires. They don't understand that it's normal to not have county roads cleared for weeks at a time. Not because it isn't getting plowed, but because the snow comes down faster than they can get back through to clear it again. Even running 4wd all the time isn't going to cut it.
i will add a set of dedicated winter tires in snow is one of the best ideas you can go with if you live where you are going to get lots of snow. anything designed to run on snow and ice will wear faster than you are going to like on pavement. that is the nature of the compounds used.
and anything designed to run on pavement for extended miles is not going to grip the way it should on ice.
I dunno. I've put almost 35 000 miles on my old Hakkas. I could still get another winter out of them if I wanted too, but I want a winter tire that is closer in size to my Toyos.
Also, yes certain winter tires will perform better than others depending on the conditions. But for any given condition, the worst performing tire will be at least 80% as effective as the best performing tire for that specific condition.
Hakkas are great for wet snow, slush, compacted snow, and when studded, sheet ice. They aren't the greatest in drier powder or a deep snowpack. No tire can save you from glare ice (also known as black ice), as it is too thin for studs or special tread compounds to bite into.
i dont know i have had to run up certain roads in the basin and been unable to then swapped to my winter tires and had zero slippage we are talking about an hour and a half time difference same day yes conditions change and yes my summer off road tires had good tread and would work in 80% of the conditions encountered but that 20% can bite you if you are stuck.
I have never run hakkas so i have no personal experience with them so zero input I am just a firm believer in winter tires and summer tires. sure there are great cross overs that will likely be fine for most people most of the time.
So true. I remember the first time I put Blizzaks on my wife's Edge. I went out and immediately "tested" them to see if it was worth the $850 investment on some low profile 18"s. The feeling I got was similar to the one I got when driving my truck the first time with tunes.:grin: Never have I been so impressed! The difference in acceleration and braking while driving aggressively in comparison to a top quality all season tire was astounding.
Tire wear I believe, will vary. I look at my wife's Blizzaks that are on her Escape in comparison to the Mastercrafts I have on my work van and they look similar in wear. My wife's have less than 10k, but my van has closer to 45k on them. Granted I drive a ton of freeway, but I also put them on in early November and didn't take them off until late April this year. My father in law has Hakkapelittas on both of their Highlanders and they seem to be very noisy and rough riding in comparison. This is why I try not to go off recommendations for much smaller and lighter vehicles when tire shopping.
My old service truck was a 2WD 96 Chevy with the Blizzak W695s and I could go up the pass for service calls when it was snowing like crazy with a layer of ice underneath and I could do circles around the 4WD guys that were up there. I've never believed that there was really "that much" traction derived from studs and it was more a function of the tread compound and tread design and those tires sold me. I pushed harder for folks to try the studless snow tires and after four winters of doing so, the repeated review that kept coming back from people was that they just couldn't believe how well they worked and they should have tried them sooner.
I know those are probably a bad apples/oranges comparison for this conversation so take it as you will. I have and will never believe that 16 contact points on the ground (4 studs on each tires contact patch), each the size of a pen tip, will do anything to improve traction on a 5000-8000lb vehicle...but that's my 0.02
Every single snow specific tire I have seen wii accept studs. I wonder if I could buy them and install them myself? I would assume that once they're in you can't remove them? The likelihood of someone hearing the clicking from the studs over the diesel and exhaust note is highly unlikely.
Yes you can....normally they're shipped to tire warehouses without studs and the studs are installed there.....unless everything was late getting ready for winter rush and they ship straight to the store and then we stud them lol. I think Harbor Freight even sells a stud gun. If you go that route, you'd need a stud gun with hopper, a good batch of Dawn soap for lube, a strong arm, and most likely a box of TSMI #15s (the correct stud size for most LT based snow tires).
Yes they can be removed once they're in and you can stud a used tire with a shorter stud BUT you can't use the same holes, new holes would have to be drilled. There is a special drill bit for drilling tires that works best on a high speed air drill....you just have to set your depth to accommodate for the shorter tread blocks.
Sweet! I might have to look into that further. We finally have a Harbor Freight in town now. As long as we're talking about improving traction on tires, what about additional siping? If I look at my stock Michelins, the wear bar seems pretty pronounced in comparison to most tires, would siping help in that spot or other spots on the tire?
For tires that don't have a lot of siping already like these
siping does help quite a bit for extra traction and stability. For already well-siped tires like your Michelins
the extra traction is quickly cancelled out by the loss in stability from additional tread squirm. The tread blocks then don't have enough "meat" in them and the vehicle feels like it's trying to turn with jello tires....it's even worse if a "full sipe" is done along the full tread face rather than opposed to just a "center sipe" of the center 2-3 blocks. I would leave the Michelins alone if it were me.
Even in the wear bar section? I was thinking of taking it right out. My tires have less than 20k on them and I guess I'm surprised by how tall the wear bar is.
What are you calling the wear bar? The wear bars are down in the tread grooves that show you when it's time to replace your tire....siping those will do nothing.
I wouldn't, but I take a more serious approach to tire safety than most. Those bars are put there to show to the customer when the tire has reached the end of it's useful life....period. At that point, the tread blocks are not tall enough to flex and grip the road and give you the same rated safety and traction that you've been used to during the tire's life....false sense of security at best.
That's why I asked what you were calling the wear bar, because at that point you should only have about 3-4 32nds left.
is the truetrac selectable? I can't remember offhand. I also have a million things to spend money on first unfortunately. When oil picks up I'll be able to drop thousands of dollars at the drop of a hat again.
Blueheart, check out this link. Scroll to the bottom, there are two catagories: Commercial studded and commercial studless. The only winter tire that I know of that isn't on the list is the Nokians, and that's because they aren't available nation-wide up here, only through one vendor (Kal-Tire). https://pmctire.com/en/info/tires-info/rating-winter.tire
again if you are running in snow it is best to avoid locked rear end
if you are pulling then a locker is the chit
my 56 has POSSI, thats the word, :doh:
anyways i used to use it haul my snowblower around the lake for doing snow removal from driveways and walkways and a few piers.
it would always get sideways on turns which was ok if you planned for it but i scarred the hell out f more than a few tourists doing so.
the biggest trick to any of this is really being able to drive :rofl:
knowing the limitations of the 56 and its ability to go through anything but the fact it would slide in any turn part of knowing how to drive it was kowing where and when to drive it
at any rate snow is a different beast than any other driving surface and should be treated as such.
i will say a good set of studs has saved my life on more than one occasion by being the difference in grip when caught by black ice i was unable to see.
and the difference between studded and non studded is like the difference between a snow tire and a multi purpose (forget the term right now) tire
I think the term you are looking for is "all season."
That's why I want a selectable locker. I do not want unintentional locking while driving on snow, or the inability to unlock. That's the nasty business about the auto-lock/unlock features, there isn't enough grip for them to work properly and it usually forces one of your tires to lose traction.
Hell, using tow-haul mode is bad too. Engine brake kicking on going downhill around a curve while towing a trailer on ice is scary business.
not sure what you got but i assume your ability to research provided an excellent choice for your needs.
I am not sure i am ever going to need more than a typical limited slip set up so it is not something i have looked into a great deal.
besides i am still way behind the curve on where i wanted my build to be at this stage so i have bigger fish to fry...so to speak >
yup thats it "all season"
fine if you live at the beach and only go on occasional ski trips
but if you live in snow in my humble opinion if you live in snow a snow tire is more than just a good idea.
towing on ice is scary if you have a brain in your head :hehe:
I actually LOVE driving in icy, snowy conditions. Separates the men from the boys, lol. The only time I will try to avoid the roads is whiteout conditions. If you can't see, you can't do anything safely.
Ahhh, I see. G80, which was/is available on GM products is a locking mechanical differential rather than a limited slip like Eaton's Detroit TrueTrac.
When my money tree finally starts bearing fruit again, I need to do something about my not working LS.
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