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Old 04-11-2009, 03:36 PM
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New guy - 2005 6.0L ICP problems

Okay guys, I'm at my wits end. I'll apologize in advance if this turns into a long post, but someone PLEASE help me. First of all, I'd like to introduce myself to the forum - my name is Shane and last week I bought a 2005 F-250 Crew Cab Lariat FX4. The truck has 173,000 miles, but it's in REALLY good condition, and I got a smokin' deal on it. I'm loving this rig, except for one thing. She frequently stumbles and looses power just off idle, like when you're pulling off from a stop.

I've been researching the board here for awhile, and apparently A LOT of people have the same problem out of this 6.0L. While I see multiple threads about the same issue, it seems there are a couple of different solutions.

When I bought the truck, nothing was wrong with it at all. I drove the truck home to Greenville SC from Atlanta. I ran 80-90 MPH all the way home and the truck did great. The next morning, I was going up a hill and she lost power and started billowing smoke out the tailpipe. I pulled over and shut it down immediately. The only thing I could think of was that I ran it too low on diesel. After looking over the truck for anything obvious (and finding nothing), I started it back up. She idled fine, but any input on the go peddle made it stumble badly. After pulling my hair out for a bit, I decided to just floor it to see what would happen. She sputtered for a bit and then cleared her throat and roared back to life.

All seemed well for a few miles, but then it started with this off idle stumble issue. It's so bad that I'm afraid to make a left turn across traffic - I don't know if it'll make it through the intersection. If I shift to neutral and floor it, she will clear up and run right again - usually. On the highway she runs great, but as soon as I slow down it will act up again.

The first thing I did was change the fuel filters and drain the water separator. I also put a full tank of fuel in, and added a little bottle of Lucas fuel injector stuff. And I've spent HOURS reading over this forum. I took the truck to a local Ford dealer to let them tell me what was wrong. I told them that I was pretty positive that the ICP sensor was the culprit. After a few hours, the dealer called me back.

They said that the EGR valve was sticking, and the intake (EGR?) was clogged with carbon. This was something they couldn't do, and had to send it to a "specialist". Oh, and my turbo needs the center section rebuilt. All this will only cost me $2700 ( ), and it won't guarantee to fix my problem. When I asked them if the ICP sensor was functioning properly, they told me that it was fine, and I needed to fix the other things before they could do any further troubleshooting. I called them out on the fact that I wanted them to check the ICP sensor and they didn't do it. Then the guy tells me that he can put the truck back in the bay to check it, but he would have to charge me twice - I had to restrain myself on that one...

So I get the truck home (anyone still reading this?), and pull the EGR off. She was pretty nasty, and after a half hour of carb cleaner and a worn out toothbrush, she looked like new again. When I went to hook it back up, I noticed that the wires at the plug were frayed. I wrapped them back up with electrical tape and some new wire loom. Jumped in the truck to see if she was healthy. No luck - still having issues.

I read a post from a guy that was a few hundred miles from home with ICP troubles. He unplugged the sensor and drove home. He said the truck drove sluggish, but otherwise was fine. So I tried to do the same with my truck. I unplugged the ICP sensor and went around the block. Now it's running worse than when the sensor was plugged in. It took a mile or two before it acted up, but it never would clear up and run right. I had to limp it back into the driveway. I was hoping that if my ICP sensor was bad, this would be a way to test it (since the PCM supposedly runs default values when the ICP is unplugged). No deal.

So like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm at my wits end. I don't know what else to do, and I guess the next step for me is to spend $140 on a new ICP sensor. If that doesn't fix it...
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Old 04-11-2009, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
They said that the EGR valve was sticking, and the intake (EGR?) was clogged with carbon. This was something they couldn't do, and had to send it to a "specialist". Oh, and my turbo needs the center section rebuilt. All this will only cost me $2700 ( ), and it won't guarantee to fix my problem. When I asked them if the ICP sensor was functioning properly, they told me that it was fine, and I needed to fix the other things before they could do any further troubleshooting. I called them out on the fact that I wanted them to check the ICP sensor and they didn't do it. Then the guy tells me that he can put the truck back in the bay to check it, but he would have to charge me twice - I had to restrain myself on that one...
Without seeing what this truck is actually doing, I assume that the turbo VGT unison ring and the intake passages are carboned up pretty good, leading to the diagnosis by the said dealer. This would be very consistent with the symptoms you describe.
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Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
So I get the truck home (anyone still reading this?), and pull the EGR off. She was pretty nasty, and after a half hour of carb cleaner and a worn out toothbrush, she looked like new again. When I went to hook it back up, I noticed that the wires at the plug were frayed. I wrapped them back up with electrical tape and some new wire loom. Jumped in the truck to see if she was healthy. No luck - still having issues.
Even if you've cleaned the EGR valve, it doesn't mean it will operate properly again, especially if it was coked up as bad as you describe. Remember, the EGR valve is an actuator, as well as a built-in position sensor to input the actual position to the PCM. Also consider the residual carbon in the intake passages. If any loose pieces fall off and jam in between the valve, you'll have the exact same problems again. What you need to be more careful with, is that it doesn't get jammed between one of the intake valves on the cylinder heads.
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Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
I read a post from a guy that was a few hundred miles from home with ICP troubles. He unplugged the sensor and drove home. He said the truck drove sluggish, but otherwise was fine. So I tried to do the same with my truck. I unplugged the ICP sensor and went around the block. Now it's running worse than when the sensor was plugged in. It took a mile or two before it acted up, but it never would clear up and run right. I had to limp it back into the driveway. I was hoping that if my ICP sensor was bad, this would be a way to test it (since the PCM supposedly runs default values when the ICP is unplugged). No deal.
Without a scan tool to monitor PID data, there really is no way of "testing" it. ICP volts SHOULD read 0.18 to 0.25 volts at key-on/engine-off, and rise to a MINIMUM of 0.8 volts (or 500 psi) to enable the injectors to fire.
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Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
So like I said at the beginning of my post, I'm at my wits end. I don't know what else to do, and I guess the next step for me is to spend $140 on a new ICP sensor. If that doesn't fix it...
I wouldn't want to be "loading the parts cannon" to TRY to fix it. That can get real expensive, REAL fast.
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Old 04-11-2009, 04:28 PM
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Hey Shane - Welome to the org. Not a tech - but I had a similar problem with my 05' and it turned out to be the HPOP "O" ring or seal. Lots to check out - but I'm sure it is something simple

Paul
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Old 04-11-2009, 04:56 PM
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Is it in my best interest to purchase a new EGR? I'll be eliminating it in the future, but that may be awhile. The dealer mention that the "center" of my turbo needed to be replaced. I'm assuming that means the bearing cartridge.

Once I get the truck to rev past the stumble phase (by flooring it), she runs perfectly. Boost comes on strong, and the truck seems to run fine. Maybe my turbo needs to be attended to in the near future, but I don't see that being my immediate problem. Then again, I'm no tech, as I'm looking to you guys...

On a second note, just awhile ago I couldn't get the truck to reverse up my driveway. She's getting to the point where it just plain won't go. And she's POURING smoke like crazy. Massive amounts of unburned diesel. Very stinky. I'm hoping I'm not doing more damage by revving it to make it go. Cylinder wash???


Oh, and I'm not getting a CEL. This is my main work truck now, so if it's not running, I'm not working. I'm desperate for help...

Last edited by StriderF4i; 04-11-2009 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
Is it in my best interest to purchase a new EGR? I'll be eliminating it in the future, but that may be awhile.
Like I said, cleaning the EGR valve will usually yield a 50/50 chance of the valve working properly again. To repair successfully will sometimes (more often than not), mandate replacing the valve. I can't emphasize this enough how important it is, to also clean out the intake passages of all the residual carbon. In extreme situations, I remove the intake and send it out to be hot-tanked (or replaced if the repair is warranty). If not, the vehicle will only be back another two weeks later with the same problem again.
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Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
The dealer mention that the "center" of my turbo needed to be replaced. I'm assuming that means the bearing cartridge.
I'm not a fan of replacing just the center rotating assembly personally. Particularly if the vehicle is out-of-warranty. My way of approaching this, if the truck were to arrive on my doorstep, would be to submit a quote to the customer to REPLACE the turbo. This way, if there are future issues, there is a 1 year/20,000 kms. (12,000 mile) warranty on parts and labour to cover both the tech and the customer. If the customer doesn't want to spend the money on a new turbo, I would simply forewarn that I can remove, disassemble, and clean the VGT unison ring and vanes out if desired. However, if disassembling the turbo reveals any problems, the end result may still be that the turbo will need to be replaced anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
Once I get the truck to rev past the stumble phase (by flooring it), she runs perfectly. Boost comes on strong, and the truck seems to run fine. Maybe my turbo needs to be attended to in the near future, but I don't see that being my immediate problem. Then again, I'm no tech, as I'm looking to you guys...
Sounds like you have an injector or two that is overfueling, by the way you describe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
On a second note, just awhile ago I couldn't get the truck to reverse up my driveway. She's getting to the point where it just plain won't go. And she's POURING smoke like crazy. Massive amounts of unburned diesel. Very stinky. I'm hoping I'm not doing more damage by revving it to make it go. Cylinder wash???


Oh, and I'm not getting a CEL. This is my main work truck now, so if it's not running, I'm not working. I'm desperate for help...
The only way to diagnose this properly is to run a power balance test under varying conditions to isolate the faulty injector(s). When you mention that she's POURING smoke like crazy, you are 100% sure that it IS fuel correct? You're not losing coolant are you?
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:31 AM
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The smoke is usually black. Sometimes it's a little gray-ish, but usually black. And it stinks. Not like a sweet smell that I would attribute to coolant. Thanks for your responses. Please keep 'em coming. I've gotta get this truck sorted out so I can keep working...


Maybe I should just go ahead and remove all the EGR stuff right away.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:42 AM
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welcome to the org, m-chan68 will fix you right up, your in good hands now
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:25 AM
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I tried to start the truck just now. It will turn over and fire for a few seconds, then gets extremely rough idle and dies. Black smoke coming out of tailpipe. I can't get it to run. This has got to be a simple thing wrong, but I don't know what to do...
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Old 04-12-2009, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderF4i View Post
I tried to start the truck just now. It will turn over and fire for a few seconds, then gets extremely rough idle and dies. Black smoke coming out of tailpipe. I can't get it to run. This has got to be a simple thing wrong, but I don't know what to do...
Okay, maybe I'm assuming too much. When you took it into the dealership for a diagnostic, did you get an invoice documenting EVERYTHING that was done? Does it indicate ALL DTCs retrieved? Did the servicing tech monitor ALL PIDs (Parameter Identification Data)? The way you're describing your problem is beginning to lead me to believe you have a FICM on its way South, but I can't comment on that until YOU can provide me with more information, more specifically if P0611 and/or P1378 DTCs were set. USUALLY, when the FICM is on its way out, both those DTCs and/or all eight injector circuit DTCs will set. If you have access to a scan tool that can read live data, look over the list carefully and provide me with the following information below:

FICM_L: should read 11.0 to 12.0 volts at key-on/engine-off and remain steady while you crank the engine.

FICM_M: should read 47.5 to 48.0 volts at key-on/engine-off and remain steady while you crank the engine.

FICM_V: should read 11.0 to 12.0 volts at key-on/engine-off and remain steady while you crank the engine.

ICP V: should read 0.25 volts at key-on/engine-off and climb to minimum 0.8 volts while you crank the engine.

ICP: should read 0 psi at key-on/engine-off and climb to minimum 500 psi while you crank the engine over.

IPR Duty Cycle: should read 14.84% at key-on/engine-off and climb to around 50% as you crank the engine over.

FICM_SYNC: should read "NO" at key-on/engine-off and change to "YES" when you crank the engine over.

SYNC: should read "NO" at key-on/engine-off and change to "YES" when you crank the engine over.

V_PWR: should indicate around 12 volts at key-on/engine-off and drop to no lower than 9.5 volts while cranking the engine over.

RPM: should indicate around 175 to 200 as you crank the engine over. Any slower, and it's not cranking fast enough.

The above data will diagnose whether or not your ICP sensor is biased or not. There are also three other data you can pull for me that will determine whether or not your turbo is functioning properly. Those three data would be EBP (Exhaust Back Pressure) in psi at key-on/engine-off, MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) in psi at key-on/engine-off and BARO (Barometric Pressure) in psi at key-on/engine-off. ALL THREE should read 14.5 or so psi at key-on/engine-off, and be no more than 0.5 psi apart.

If you can post your results, PARTICULARLY what FICM_M is doing as you rev the engine up, maybe then we can sort your problem out.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:27 PM
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I don't have immediate access to a scanner, but I'm working on getting one. In the mean time, I am curious about my EGR valve. I was told that when I pull it out of the intake manifold, it should be closed. It's stuck open, so that means it's bad, right? I can move it, but it's very difficult. It doesn't move easily. A new EGR is on order, but won't I just mess it up if I install it without removing and cleaning my intake manifold? And the EGR wouldn't be the reason for my truck not starting, I'm sure.

Anyway, please keep checking back on my thread. I should have a printout of what the scanner gives me in a day or two. Thanks...
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