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Old 04-22-2012, 02:52 PM
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Question Quest For Knowledge

Hi Everyone-I'm new to this forum and researching posts to gain insight into other's past issues with PSD's. I'll start with what we have and what I know has been done to it. We have a 2001 F350 CCSB 4x4 single axle with the 7.3 PSD, auto, all bone stock as it came, 190,000 miles. It belonged to a friend who owns a couple of farms my oldest son manages. Robert had this one and has an 04 F350 dually 6.0, 5 spd 4x4. As an aside the '01 will run rings around the '04! Anyway, I'm a mechanic by trade and training, experienced at breaking stuff for about 36 years, including old school diesels. Educationally wise and experience wise I'm woefully inadequate with newer computerized outfits such as the 7.3's and up. As I maintain all of his farm equipment Robert basically let me have free use of the '01 whenever I wanted it, and eventually we bought it from him for my middle son to use in his welding business, which keeps it on the road 5 days a week several hundred miles from here.
As I did most all the maint. work and PM's on it, it was well maintained and except for a couple of items it was always trouble free and ran like a champ. It sprang an oil leak once, the evening before we were to leave for vacation, so Robert had a local diesel shop fix that. It was pouring oil onto the block valley under the plenum at the front of the engine. I was told it broke a brass fitting under there(?). The shop also steamcleaned the engine, but after it melted the starter and relays, and I found moisture in several of the connectors, they said that while they cleaned it, they never got it wet. More on this later. The day he picked it up it quit on him on the way to work( like most farmers he has an actual paying job), so he had it towed back to them and they pulled the codes and put a cam sensor on it. It seemed to run fine for a while.
Several years ago Robert accidentally caught the driver's door with a bushhog when he turned the tractor around too close to it. It crushed the door and, I believe, caused a small crack in the A pillar at the windshield seam. We re-skinned the door and lined it up and it opened and shut fine. About a month after he got it back from the oil leak/CPS, and several months after the door, one night it engaged the starter and turned over till it melted it and the relays, I guess until it killed the batteries and broke the field. Since no one was around where it was parked, no one heard it do it. I brought it to my house/shop and replaced the starter, relay, GPR and the adjacent aih relay, just in case it had burned the contacts. That's when I found the moisture in so many of the connectors and found out about the steam cleaning, which I blamed for the starter engagement, however I did find the insert in the starter box about leaking windshields dropping water onto the module and harness under the dash, shorting the electrical system and engaging the starter. This got me curious, but I didn't put two and two together just yet. I re-charged the batteries, which tested ok, and all seemed well for a while. This was Feb. 09, in late March or early April the batteries went dead again(after it rained, but it was at the farm so no one heard it turning over) so I re-charged them again and they tested good, so I dismissed it to it sitting all the time. The next time it did it was June 09, so I installed 2 new Duralast Gold 850/1000cca Group 65 batteries in July 09 and kept it parked at my place. No problems at all. I've also rotated the batts every 6 months religiously. Well, one night about 3 am during a rain storm the alarm system/horn starts going off, I figured someone was messing with it, but when I went out to re-set it the starter was engaged and she was just turning over to beat the band! Disconnected the batteries and then took it to a friend's glass shop, told him what happened. He has an 01 exactly like ours and had never heard of it. Well, they pulled the windshield, which did break it(he warned me) and like to have never found the crack, but finally did and urethaned it and dropped in new glass. Put two and two together and made me wonder about the last time when I put the starter on it. Solved that problem and Cory's been driving it since for his welding business.
Three weeks ago, on the way back in off the road, Cory calls me and says it's topping out about 3000-3,500 range and not pulling. As soon as I rode in it I knew it wasn't getting fuel, but my delimma was that I had both bays at home and both bays at the farm full with torn down equipment that I was trying to get put back together, and he needed the truck back by Tuesday to go back out on the road for his business. Very reluctantly I told him to run it by the dealer and ask them to ck the fuel system on it. They called him back and said the filter needed to be changed(ok, I'll buy that and it matches the symptom) but then they said the FP wasn't putting out enough and needed changing, though I still haven't gotten an answer as to what the psi rating and gph flow was. They also told him they had seen many tanks that were dirty and corroded and recommended letting them drop and clean it. I've seen dirt in tanks before so that wasn't out of the realm of possibility. I went with him Tuesday(4/3) to pick it up, 1100.00 bucks, and it was running fine at first and no problems on the road. He got back Sat. and had it parked uphill(remember this part) at his bosses' house. Easter Sunday he comes out, it will spin over, but no start. After they about ran the batteries down they rolled it backwards and swung it around to a semi-level spot, he called me about it, then they left for church. I gathered up my tools, meters and chargers and went over to check it out. I charged up the batteries and ck'd the water in them, and cleaned the terminals, though they weren't really dirty. All I could find visibly wrong was a ton of dirt on the gpr and aih relay's, so I sprayed them off with Brakleen. I checked several other connections, all the fluids(we had just changed the oil on it the weekend before), but it fired right up for me as soon as I spun it over. I couldn't find anything else wrong with it and it started repeatedly after that. Soon as he goes back on the road it starts acting up again, esp. cold starts first thing in the morning. Seemed like if he jiggled the gpr it would fire right up.
Well, he's 300 miles away and I'm trying to give him pointers over the phone, and I suggested he swap out the gpr, but the local A-Z and Advance were no help there, even with me telling them over the phone what to look up. I sent him to a Ford dealer there but they didn't have one in stock and their tech, who drives a 7.3 and a 6.0, told him he didn't think that was the problem, and told him how to ck the HPOP level. While he's doing this he sees that it appears to be leaking fuel either around the fuel filter housing or the water seperator valve. No valve available down there, so I told him to not try to do anything to it. It wouldn't start again the next morning, nose slightly uphill, and they rolled it backward and it cranked up. He just left it running all day so as not to risk it quitting at the jobsites. That evening back at the hotel it wouldn't start again. Same thing the next morning, but eventually got it fired again. I told him to pull off and bring it back, to take it back to the dealer here in Virginia and make them re-check it to see if they messed up something or if the fuel leak is causing it.
They said they would check it out good, but then they called him back and told him the intake air heater had failed and that was what is causing his problem. They want 500 to replace it, but I've got my doubts that is what it is. They also said the batteries were bad and needed replacing, know this isn't right and they are still under the three year N/C replacement warranty, so I can take them by A-Z and have them tested/replaced Monday. Then they suggested replacing the gpr, just because.....what's a "just because"? (They don't know I'm a mechanic, but they might be about to find out) I don't believe the air heater would keep it from starting in this warmer weather. Cold weather, cold start; yea I could see that. I believe they are throwing parts or it's a CYA on a mistake they made before. Please chime in and let me know what you guys think. Ya'll seem to be some pretty savvy cats on these newer diesels.
One other question, and I'll probably partly answer this one myself later. Never have had occasion to ck before. I have a Snap-On MT-2500 scanner, though I don't have the latest cartridges, is it compatible with the OBD-2 system on the PSD's or have you guys found a better or more accurate brand that has proven itself trustworthy? Thanks ahead for your input and time, I really appreciate it.
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Old 04-23-2012, 04:46 PM
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OK, we picked up the truck at lunch time today. I asked for the old parts back and got a look like "you can't really expect me to take that seriously, do you?" and the SW went in the back, came out and said the tech was gone to lunch and if I would come back later he would round them up. I'll try to get back there tomorrow to get them, let ya'll know on that.
Here's the ticket:
1 F81Z-6G015-AA Relay (air heater solenoid) $75.00 ($20.00 from AZ)
1 F81Z-9N424-BA Heater Assembly- Nozzle (ahh, the infamous air heater) $106.67-ouch
1 F81Z-12B568-AAA wire assembly-Glow plug(AhHa! Now we are prob. on a problem) It was $30.00. Someone please share the details of the .25c fix with me.
Labor- 4 hrs- $320.00
Total- $552.49
Here is where I'll eat my words in my previous post. They said they charged up the batteries good, so we took it on to AutoZone and load tested each one and indeed each tested bad, however since they were still under the three year N/C replacement warranty AZ swapped them out for nothing. We load tested the charging system and it's working ok. So far, it has cranked fine, and since it is a bit nippy today for the east coast in late April, I am going to tentatively pronounce it fixed. However he's cutting out on the road so if it acts up again then I suppose that SWHTF. I purchased a couple of manuals for it, I may get a FoMoCo factory book, and I believe that I will just do most repairs to it from now on.
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Old 04-23-2012, 05:52 PM
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i think this might be the longest single post i have ever read on here i have a buddy that bought a wrecked 2002 that must have had the windshield broke out , and it must have sat a while because the whole fuze/relay box under the dash was corroded/shorted out causing all kinds of intermittant issues. i would look at that if i were you. also my cousin has a snapon scan tool that does work on p strokes. good luck, im sure someone else will chime in that knows more than me. my experience has been that a lot of certified mechanics have no idea how these motors actually work so you are better off doing it yourself. there is usually a lot of tedious circuit testing that goes on with these intermittant issues that can get expensive at the shop!
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Old 04-24-2012, 06:23 AM
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Thumbs up Thanks!

Hated to drone on, but felt like if I didn't share the details it'd likely end up with a "Well, it might be this or it might be that", rather than a bit more specific area to look at. Appreciate the info on your buddy's 02, and the scanner, I'll drop that fuse box and check everything under there.
Well, low and behold as I am writing this Cory calls and says she dumped on him in a parking lot 200 miles from here. I had him clean, pull and re-seat all the connectors under the hood, then told him if it didn't start to pull the cover and give the fuse panel and then the module a sharp rap with his hand. No start after the connectors or fuses, but as soon as he popped the module she started right up. I had the dealer on one phone and him on the other, supposed to get the parts when I run by there.
Not blowing my own horn(really), and def. not trying to impress anybody, but I'm an ASE Master Auto tech, Master Med/Heavy Truck tech, 23 certs, and State Inspector. Now all that really means is this:
1) I've broken a lot of stuff and made a lot of mistakes over the years.
2) If I don't already know the answer I'd best know the right questions to ask and where to find the answers.
3) I've spent an incredible amount of my wife's money on some really shiny tools.
4) I should have been a gynecologist! Anybody that's a mechanic will understand that one.
Thanks for the looks and the reply, I shall keep this site, and all of you guys, near and dear to my heart, wrenches, and wallet.
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:09 AM
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Short update and question- after repeated hard to starts Cory came back to re-supply. Took it to put two tires on the front and two trailer tires. Guy gets in it, has to crank it several times before it started. After tires it started fine and again for us. We'd already agreed to drop the fuse panel/module and PCM and clean all the connections. Cory said he'd previously pushed on the wiring harness bundle beside the PCM and it started, too. Pulled the underhood relay box to access the harnesses, cleaned and checked them, pins seemed ok. Put it all back together, would crank but no start at all. Went back in search of more info and a comprehensive wiring diagram to study. Got it and am currently checking wires in the relay box and harness to see if we have chafing, short to grnd, etc. I believe that's where we will ultimately find the problem.
Got the air heater, cable and relay back from the dealer. Cable is flat melted and is 8-10ga wire, so she was really cooking. Surprised it didn't catch the truck on fire. Air heater is not shorted to ground but I don't have a spec on how much resistance the element should have. It's straight to itself, no resistance. I cut the relay apart to see if the contacts were welded together, they weren't but one side is fairly burned away. I'll post pics later.
In the wiring diagram and on Auto-Zone's website they list both the PCM and a Fuel Pump Driver Module, which the schematic lists as the Injector Driver Module. I don't see another computer mounted under the driver's side dash, could someone please direct me to it's location?
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:24 AM
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The IDM is located behind the wheel well in the drivers ft fender (kinda right behind the F350 emblem) and can sometimes have water intrusion from being there.

The AIH isn't really ever going to cause a No Start, it rarely activates and only after the motor has already started....

Next time I have a spare 1/2hr, I'll try to read your entire post hehe I'm sure the answer is there somewhere.....
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Old 04-27-2012, 08:55 PM
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Talking The Beast Lives!!!!!!!!

Ha! Found it! Yipeeeeee, we ride! My oldest, Matt, ran down some tech posts from a Ford tech somewhere, I got ahold of a good wiring diagram and PID info and I started tracing voltages. Pulled the harness from the Batt Junc Box to the left bank expecting to find chafed wires, but none were there. Hooked up 4 meters in sequence to watch voltage loop through the sensors to the gp relay and air heater relay, down to the tranny module and back to the PCM. Got battery voltage all the way back to the computer. Tested each connection under the Battery Junction box with Key Off(12v on supply side) then KOEO(battery voltage through each relay and PID's and grounds back to the PCM. Crank it over, by myself, and no start. I'm this close to condeming the PCM due to the massive amp draw that melted the Air Heater Cable. Matt comes to help me, got him in the cab to KoEo, went under to ck the pump, it's running fine, back up to re-probe the Battery Junction Box to watch voltage drops while he cranks it over(about to break out the ocilliscope), probe relay 30(PCM) voltage is fine, ck Relay 31(Blower motor, it's ok-wouldn't matter anyway) 3rd time to ck 32(Injector Driver Module Relay) Drk green wire/Lt Grn Stripe 12.28 in/12.28v out. Told Matt to turn it over, fired right up! Now, I've turned it over dozens of times since Wed. with NO START. I told Matt to shut it off, try to re-start-NO GO. This time when I probed 32 I got 12.25v in, but only 2.08v out(every other time I checked it by myself it showed battery voltage!) Now, I'd pulled, checked and re-seated every fuse and relay at least 3 times since Wed., but I hadn't swapped positions of the relays. I thunked it several times with my finger and it varied wildly, then went back to battery voltage, he spun it over and it fired right up. I swapped it for the blower relay and she cranked first turn every time. AutoZone happened to have 3 relays in stock, part number 19273 at $13.99 each, so I put in all three. Apparently the relay was dropping out under load while cranking cutting the power to the Injector Driver Module, keeping it from giving the old girl some go juice. I got her all back together in a few minutes and she's running like a charm. All that aggravation and downtime over a 14 dollar part has probably cost Cory 10G's of lost work in the last 2 weeks, but thank God I didn't go buy a PCM, or anything else expensive for it. Still don't know why it cooked off the air relay cable, all I can do is keep an eye on it. Thanks everybody, and if yours dumps on ya, try swapping the relay positions before you part with those precious Benjamins. Remember-Money spent on trucks is money not spent on guns. Don't spend money on trucks!
Attached Thumbnails
Quest For Knowledge-batjncbox.jpg   Quest For Knowledge-harnesslftvc.jpg   Quest For Knowledge-relaycable.jpg   Quest For Knowledge-airhtrrelay.jpg   Quest For Knowledge-noshrt2grnd.jpg  

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Old 04-27-2012, 09:15 PM
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BTW NoRalPh- that is a dumb @$$ place to mount a computer.
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Old 04-28-2012, 12:40 AM
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Unhappy For A Chuckle

While I'm in AutoZone Thursday looking up wiring diagrams, in walks Customer X, approaches Employee Helpful:
X-"I need a clutch"
EH-OK, what year, make and model is your vehicle?
X-Ummm, it's black
EH-Well, Is it a Toyota, Nissan, Ford.....
X-(blank stare) I'm not sure, aren't they all the same?
EH-No sir, I'll have to know the year model, manufacturer, model of the car...
X-I'd have to drive all the way back home to find out(looking disgusted)(I usually find out half way and turn around again)
EH-Well, we will be here till 9 pm tonight
X-OK, I'll be back.......(With Arnold? And a gun?)
20 odd minutes later...
X-Here's the registration card, does that help?
EH-Yes, but I'll still need to know some other information, do you know the car model?
X- Altima, I think it said
EH-5 speed transmission?
X-No, it's an automatic, I don't need anything for the transmission, my air conditioner won't work. My mechanic said my clutch is broke or frozen over or something, it won't get cold inside the car.(Like Greg said:The care and feeding of your mechanic is essential to your automotive happiness.)
EH-so you need an A/C compressor clutch?
X-(blank stare)(Dang Skippy! Who knew there'd be a test?)
EH-What size engine does your car have?
X-(blank stare) I don't know
EH-Do you know which compressor it has on it?
X-It's black
EH-(looks up comp clutch exploded view) Does it look like this?
X-No, mine's not all apart like that(At least he was honest)
EH-Why don't you get your mechanic to come down with you to get it.
X-No, I'm going to fix it myself, he wants too much
EH-Do you have the tools to take this apart?
X-I've got some wrenches and screwdrivers(A couple of hammers too, maybe?)
EH-It takes some special tools to change this, we have them available for rent
X-It doesn't look that hard, but I'll get them if I need them.
EH-Do you have gauges?
X-Yea, they're in the dash. Oh, I'm going to need some lines for it too.
EH-Suction or high pressure?
X-Yea, if you think I need them. I'm going to need some of that freeze on stuff that goes in it.
EH-Freon?
X-Yea, that's it. What colors does that come in?
Let's all hope he's not doing his own brake jobs, too.

Last edited by porkchop6209; 04-28-2012 at 04:59 PM. Reason: Warped, demented, twisted, poor potty training, because I can't leave it alone, it's too funny
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