running of straight vegi oil

[CHenry]

Originally Posted by Badfish740

I would like you to actually. As I said, I've only done the research, I haven't actually done it myself. Pretty much all of my information comes from the infopop forums/frybrid.com, which are both pretty highly regarded, so if anything is incorrect, its likely because of my misinterpretation of the information.

I'd really like to hear from someone who has a lot of experience running on SVO, so feel free to pick my explanation apart.

Well, i don't call myself an expert but i think some of this is misleading. Frybrid is a good place to read SOME good stuff and a good place to read alot of crap and conjecture...i don't know about infopop.

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by CHenry

Well, i don't call myself an expert but i think some of this is misleading.

Which parts though? Seriously-I wasn't trying to be a smart*** in my last post, I mean I re-read it this morning (posted it kinda late last night) and the one thing I picked out is that I wrote that you had to heat to at least 120 degrees which is wrong, but other than that I thought I was pretty on target. I really want to know what I'm not understanding.

Originally Posted by CHenry

Frybrid is a good place to read SOME good stuff and a good place to read alot of crap and conjecture...i don't know about infopop.

I don't take Frybrid's site as gospel, but it is a good place to look at the systems and how they work. The infopop forums are good but you have to pick through the pissing matches and conjecture. It's kind of like the old "give a million monkeys typewriters and eventually you'll get Shakespeare" idea. Or something like that

[CHenry]

Originally Posted by Badfish740

matches and conjecture.

Theres ALOT of that on Frybrids Forum too, most of it coming from the Almighty Mr. Goodwin himself...i don't participate much on there anymore because of it.
Later this mornign when i have more time, i will address your other post.

[jojo1928]

I'm interested in the biofuel concept and I hear everyone say that svo is too thick. What about blending it with #2 diesel.

[CHenry]

Originally Posted by jojo1928

I'm interested in the biofuel concept and I hear everyone say that svo is too thick. What about blending it with #2 diesel.

SVO is too thick, at any temp below 160*.
Check out the link in my sig and see the conversion kit that I have been running SVO on for the last 12,000 miles in my 6.0 PSD.
It works very well. No blending needed.

[CHenry]

Originally Posted by Badfish740

First and foremost, straight vegetable oil and biodiesel are NOT the same.

Correct and so many people don't realize that.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

Biodiesel is SVO that's been "refined," but not refined as in cracked, like petroluem products.

wrong, the transertification process changes the molecular composision of the vegi oil.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

Biodiesel is made by reacting SVO with sodium methoxide (a mixture of lye and methanol)

In biodiesel production, methoxide is incorrectly referred to as the product of mixing methanol and sodium hydroxide. Since this reaction generates copius amounts of water as a by product, this reaction is unlikely to produce any substantial amounts of usable sodium methoxide (NaO-CH3).

Originally Posted by Badfish740

Some vehicles seem to tolerate biodiesel better than others From what I've seen the 6.0L doesn't seem to tolerate it well, but the 7.3L seems to be able to handle mixtures of 75% (B75) to 100% (B100) bio just fine (the other 25% being regular diesel), so blending in small amounts to begin with is recommended.

I don't agree with this, and i have no real evidence to back it up, i just don't agree. Any diesel engine will burn Bio-D fine as long as the Bio is water free, filtered properly and of course has the glycerins completely removed. Of couse the fuel system needs to have viton seals or other material that will not disolve because of the corrosive nature of Bio-D.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

SVO on the other hand requires modifications to the vehicle which basically entail a seperate tank/pump/filtration/delivery system for the SVO, and a method of heating it to operating temperature.

Most of this is right on except a little vague. Initially the oil only needs to be warm enough to flow through the lines and filter, then upon reaching the injectors it must be 160* before injection..."operating temperature" is hotter than 160.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

The heating is usually accomplished by using waste heat from engine coolant and 12V heating devices.

Usually? This is the only way you can heat it that I am aware of.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

You can't run SVO without A: filtering it to at least 5 microns, B: ensuring that there is absolutely NO suspended or free water in it, and C: heating it to at least 120 degrees F so that it is sufficiently thinned.

All of this I agree with except the 120* which you already noted was a mistake.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

If you fail to take one or more of these steps, at the very least your fuel filters will become plugged, and at the worst you'll destroy your injection pump.

Correct, but PSD don't have an IP....so lets say destroy your injectors instead.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

SVO at normal temperatures (say 72 degrees) is just too thick to be handled by an injection pump. At that temp SVO has about 30 times the viscosity of #2 diesel.

The main point of heating, again, is proper atomization when injected. Pumping thick oil may shorten the life of an IP unless your talking about a Benz - which a Benz IP could pump cement and last forever - but again asuming we are talking about a PSD, there is no mechanical IP.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

If the oil has water suspended in it (all used fryer oil has a lot, all new oil has a little)

This is very misleading. It depends where you get your oil. Mine comes straight from the fryer, those fryers operate at or above 360*, water will not suspend and remain in the oil at that temp. It is cooked off. If you get your oil from a dumpster where the lid has been opened exposing the oil to rain, you will have free water in the botom of the dumpster and some suspended water simply from humidity in the air. My oil contains less than about 100 ppm when i collect it. That means only a couple of drops settle out of a 50 gallon batch.
And i have seen documentation showing that new oil containes less water than the diesel fuel at your local truck stop. Also not ALL new food grade oil has the same water content but all contain very very small amounts that are withing tolerances for our truck engines.

Originally Posted by Badfish740

the water will be rapidly turned to steam when it enters the injection pump. Once this happens the mini steam explosions will cause pitting on the various metal surfaces inside the pump. Finally, just like with fuel, filtration is important, most anyone who uses SVO filters to 5 microns (if not smaller) before the fuel hits the IP.

Correct, but again, don't forget this happens also with the injectors.

There is so much technical stuff involved with this that it is very difficult to write a post like this and include enough information to completely back up everything with facts and also explain it well enough for the average Joe to read it and completely understand it...so i wanted to try and clear this up a bit - yet I still can't do it completely because there just isn't enough time in my day to type it all out. So don't take offense, i wasn't picking on your post.

[stump0331]

Originally Posted by CHenry

If Mythbusters did this and said it was okay, they are idiots.

i figured that out the first couple times i watche it

they are not always objective in the experiments

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by stump0331

i figured that out the first couple times i watche it

they are not always objective in the experiments

It is fun to watch them blow **** up though

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by CHenry

In biodiesel production, methoxide is incorrectly referred to as the product of mixing methanol and sodium hydroxide. Since this reaction generates copius amounts of water as a by product, this reaction is unlikely to produce any substantial amounts of usable sodium methoxide (NaO-CH3).

Thanks for clearing that up-I had always heard it referred to as such. So you're basically saying that the proper terminology is "a mixture of sodium hydroxide and methanol."

Originally Posted by CHenry

I don't agree with this, and i have no real evidence to back it up, i just don't agree. Any diesel engine will burn Bio-D fine as long as the Bio is water free, filtered properly and of course has the glycerins completely removed. Of couse the fuel system needs to have viton seals or other material that will not disolve because of the corrosive nature of Bio-D.

That info I actually got from here where someone posted about the 6.0L's supposed problems with bio. Of course, bad fuel could certainly be to blame in any case.

Originally Posted by CHenry

Most of this is right on except a little vague. Initially the oil only needs to be warm enough to flow through the lines and filter, then upon reaching the injectors it must be 160* before injection..."operating temperature" is hotter than 160.

Originally Posted by CHenry

Usually? This is the only way you can heat it that I am aware of.

The moral of the story here kids is, don't post overly technical stuff when you're sleepy.

Originally Posted by CHenry

Correct, but PSD don't have an IP....so lets say destroy your injectors instead.

Eh...I knew that, really!

Originally Posted by CHenry

The main point of heating, again, is proper atomization when injected. Pumping thick oil may shorten the life of an IP unless your talking about a Benz - which a Benz IP could pump cement and last forever - but again asuming we are talking about a PSD, there is no mechanical IP.

Good point, coking and injector damage is a much more serious problem.

Originally Posted by CHenry

This is very misleading. It depends where you get your oil. Mine comes straight from the fryer, those fryers operate at or above 360*, water will not suspend and remain in the oil at that temp. It is cooked off. If you get your oil from a dumpster where the lid has been opened exposing the oil to rain, you will have free water in the botom of the dumpster and some suspended water simply from humidity in the air. My oil contains less than about 100 ppm when i collect it. That means only a couple of drops settle out of a 50 gallon batch. And i have seen documentation showing that new oil containes less water than the diesel fuel at your local truck stop. Also not ALL new food grade oil has the same water content but all contain very very small amounts that are withing tolerances for our truck engines.

This goes against prevailing thought on the infopop forums, at least what I've read, but 12K miles on SVO speaks for itself. The engine would have died a while ago if you weren't using good dry oil. Just out of curiosity how do you test for ppm of water? I'd love to be able to do that myself.

Originally Posted by CHenry

So don't take offense, i wasn't picking on your post.

I never did take offense. What I've been doing is basically equivalent to bench racing. It's helpful to have a real world perspective.

[CHenry]

Originally Posted by Badfish740

This goes against prevailing thought on the infopop forums, at least what I've read, but 12K miles on SVO speaks for itself. The engine would have died a while ago if you weren't using good dry oil. Just out of curiosity how do you test for ppm of water? I'd love to be able to do that myself.

I don't know what they say on that forum or who is saying it. But honestly, if you have oil in a fryer at 360*, how will ANY water survive those temps when water turns to gas at a much lower temp.

My PPM quote was more of an estimation but you can more acurrately account for PPM of water in your oil, its a simple % or ratio...is you have a million ounces of oil and 1 ounce of water settled out of it, you have 1 ppm water in oil. You simplify that for your application (you probably won't have a million oz of oil). In my case, i had 50 gallons of oil or 6400 oz. a few drops of water so lets call that .25 oz. if you convert that you get - .25 x 156.25 = 39 PPM water in oil.