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5K views 32 replies 8 participants last post by  bobbywalter 
#1 ·
Been doing a bit of reading and contemplating the idea of alternative fuels since my drives could GREATLY increase in distance soon. Seems a good group of people use/run ATF and I'm considering it also. It's not for my trucks in the sig, I'll be picking up another rig (thinking TDI Jetta) but let me know what you think about this.

Filtering....

55 gallon drum pre-screened at 175microns settling for a min of 1 week

Pumped through 10 and 5 micron filters to another settling tank

This tank is cut with 10% RUG (or as required) and settled for another week or so (hear this helps pull a lot of stuff out)

Then a final filter of 1 or .5 micron sock filter to the final tank.

All tanks will pull from the upper 3/4s only.


Burning it....

Thinking about running a two tank(heated) system. Wouldn't this help?

Also going to start at lower mix percentage and work my way up a bit...

What do ya'll think?
 
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#2 ·
I have run WVO and B100 in ALH and PD jettas for years.

I cannot recomend WVO, as I had little success.

I can recomend B100 in ALH and PD TDI's

Anything else other than B100 or blends of B100 with D2 I highly discourage.

ATF is really not a good idea. These engines and injection systems, especially the PD TDI are highly sophistocated and generally dont tolerate anything other than outlined above.
 
#3 ·
I've done a bit of reading, but still fairly green in general. Where can i find some of the negatives on ATF? Almost every thread I've come across goes from ATF to WMO and i'm not interested in WMO

I honestly haven't seem to come across to many as long as it's filtered properly... Any links or threads would be great.
 
#4 ·
#6 ·
ok
what do ya want to know?

I will share this:
Filtering waste oils till the cows come home is not enough.
Gravity CF is the only way to go, in my opinion.
 
#7 ·
Well I've heard plenty of success stories...

Why should one NOT use ATF leaving emissions and red dye out of it...

Things I atleast think I know...

1. You can filter/CF/Settle it enough to be safe
2. you can cut if with RUG and/or dilute it with diesel to overcome the viscosity issues (does cutting with RUG help remove material in suspension? I swear I read that)
3. Heating it should help even more with the viscosity issues.. Think 2 tank WVO system

I guess what is wrong with these statements, and what else do I need to know?
 
#8 ·
Knock yourself out.
Im just saying, having messed with almost everything possible in wvo, wvo conversions, and B100 including B? blends..IN AN ACTUAL ALH AND PD VW....

I am pretty sure that the Injectors in a PD will get a real kick out of being fed ATF.....for a very short period of time. Then you will be dropping 2k plus labor.

THe ALH injectors will likely tolerate it for a while, however, I dont believe the pump will. Them little honeys are over $1200 each.

I have replaved 2 IP's on the ALH before I got off of WVO.....and yes, I have converted many ALH and PD VW TDI they seem to not tolerate anything but biodiesel or blends of biodiesel with D2.

If that is not what you wanted to hear, Im sorry. Run your questions past the guys over at the Club...you will learn a lot there.
 
#9 ·
not set on a jetta or ATF.. really just talking outloud..

So what makes the injectors and pumps not up to the task? If you can match viscosity (or very close) and heat it (even better???) Note it will be heated before it ever touches the pump or injectors (two tank system and I live in the south so cold starts = 40 degrees
 
#10 ·
Because they are NOT designed for heavy fuel.

Do you know how much heat comes out of a 1.9l ALH engine at 20*F?
Answer is very little. In fact, later models came with glow plugs in the coolant stream to raise coolant temps. Electric assist via a vegtherm is like pissing in the wind. It just isnt enough.

I fear that anything you will potentially save burning ATF will be quickly absorbed by repairing a car that routinely gets 45-52 MPG on D2.

I would be thinking more about a Benz. Those are very forgiving. Or abandon the whole theory, buy a nice Jetta or Passat tdi, and fill it full of d2 and drive it 300-400K miles.

My daily driver is at about 250K. I got it at 117K, and its been on B100 for the overwhealming majority of its life with me. Its been flawless since I replaced injectors and gave up on WVO. I think you will experience the same or worse fate with ATF. And yes, the car has a two tank system, TIH, 20 FPHE, a FRB5 lift pump, MB coolant circulation pump, VW cold front, insulated lines, and for a short time a vegtherm. If you can think any angle I overlooked, please let me know because I could not think of anything else to do to get temps up for waste oils. The other car is an ALH, set up in the same manor, and could never see 160*F fuel temps for WVO use at temps less than 20*F. So, like I said maybe an old Benz in the answer to your question, because I am pretty sure an ALH or PD VW is not the answer.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the information... I'm not 100% abandoning the idea yet, I'm just trying to gather information, and your info on the TDI is much appreciated. I'm thinking of picking up a TDI as a fun and useful car, but who knows a diesel merc could be picked up super cheap I bet.

As for ATF are you basically saying that you can't get it right? Filtering it properly and cutting it with RUG can't get it to the right viscosity? Along with heating/doing a two tank system? Not specifically for a TDI but to mimic the characteristics of D2 in general?
 
#16 ·
As for ATF are you basically saying that you can't get it right? Filtering it properly and cutting it with RUG can't get it to the right viscosity? Along with heating/doing a two tank system? Not specifically for a TDI but to mimic the characteristics of D2 in general?
VegginPSD - I'm NOT set on a vehicle.... Do you have any feedback on the statement above? This thread has the potential to head the same direction as most, and I don't want that. I want to learn about the "fuel" as I'm not set on a car yet, 300D would be kinda cool! :D and my drive still hasn't changed.

Jeff, thanks for your feedback too. I like hearing what everyone has to say.
 
#13 ·
Been doing a bit of reading and contemplating the idea of alternative fuels since my drives could GREATLY increase in distance soon. Seems a good group of people use/run ATF and I'm considering it also. It's not for my trucks in the sig, I'll be picking up another rig (thinking TDI Jetta) but let me know what you think about this.
I have not heard of anyone having trouble burning WATF on any diesel engine, so, as long as you filter it properly, then it should run fine on any diesel engine. In fact I hear on many alternative diesel fuels forums people raving about how good WATF is to run. Personally I think the raving is over rated, but it should run fine. There is a trucker on Diesel Place running WATF for years on a big-rig here is what he said.:
well. its like this....i started out 01-02 with the biodiesel goal. its work...allot of effort i dont have time or room for and its nasty bull**** waste i had to deal with. combine that with the competition even at that time for good oil and the rendering plant started threatening some places about the fact that people have to have a proper licence to haul it off... (a licence to haul dead animals here in mi)....and then add after fawking up a bunch of filters in my psd at 23 a pop i gave up.

combine this with my needs at that time....working 14-18 some times 20 hrs a day with 8 of them going 70-80 mph and 5 kids i just dont have time...my precious days off were at sporting events my children are/were in or riding our motorcycles...fishing--shooting etc........

the waste oil method i can stop at certain trans shops on my normal routes and pump on the run...been basically doing that for 10 years so its not an issue with my normal blend rates at all. no real injector coking. i never had any serious issues till i extended running on 100 percent oil....never had the balls to extended run it till i seen brooks methodology and explanatory.

currently i again run from southern florida to northern michigan as a base work run....often with real clean hyd a can score from there i just run it 100 percent when i leave then 50 the next tank then 30 ish depending on time of year....sometimes i am back to straight by ohio going home in winter.

so...if i can run indefinitely 50 to 100 percent watf/hyd with 3000 psi injectors and modded tips....that makes bio-diesel look real stupid. it only takes 5-6 minutes longer to fill my tank on a pre planned route. instead of going to the gas station i stop at the trans shop.ALTERNATIVE FUELs over 7k mies - Page 36 - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
Filtering....

55 gallon drum pre-screened at 175microns settling for a min of 1 week

Pumped through 10 and 5 micron filters to another settling tank

This tank is cut with 10% RUG (or as required) and settled for another week or so (hear this helps pull a lot of stuff out)
WATF is just on the heavy side of the viscosity of diesel fuel, so it could be run un-blended in warm weather. During the winter blending some solvent could help with starting, but 10% gasoline is a little more than I think you need. %5 gasoline, or 10% kerosene, or 15% diesel fuel is probably all you need.

But, the thing to get about blending is, blending helps with cleaning, so if you blend your solvent with your waste oil first, then leave it to settle for 1-7 days, then filter, and I think centrifuges are good, but it depends upon how dirty your waste oil is.
Then a final filter of 1 or .5 micron sock filter to the final tank.

All tanks will pull from the upper 3/4s only.


Burning it....

Thinking about running a two tank(heated) system. Wouldn't this help?

Also going to start at lower mix percentage and work my way up a bit...

What do ya'll think?
A heated 2-tank system would help burn the WATF and preclude the need for a solvent. Also, gasoline blends in a heated fuel system tends to lead to vapor-lock.
I've done a bit of reading, but still fairly green in general. Where can i find some of the negatives on ATF? Almost every thread I've come across goes from ATF to WMO and i'm not interested in WMO

I honestly haven't seem to come across to many as long as it's filtered properly... Any links or threads would be great.
This thread is mostly about WATF, but does go to WMO as well.
ALTERNATIVE FUELs over 7k mies - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums
 
#33 · (Edited)
I have not heard of anyone having trouble burning WATF on any diesel engine, so, as long as you filter it properly, then it should run fine on any diesel engine. In fact I hear on many alternative diesel fuels forums people raving about how good WATF is to run. Personally I think the raving is over rated, but it should run fine. There is a trucker on Diesel Place running WATF for years on a big-rig here is what he said.:


WATF is just on the heavy side of the viscosity of diesel fuel, so it could be run un-blended in warm weather. During the winter blending some solvent could help with starting, but 10% gasoline is a little more than I think you need. %5 gasoline, or 10% kerosene, or 15% diesel fuel is probably all you need.

But, the thing to get about blending is, blending helps with cleaning, so if you blend your solvent with your waste oil first, then leave it to settle for 1-7 days, then filter, and I think centrifuges are good, but it depends upon how dirty your waste oil is.

A heated 2-tank system would help burn the WATF and preclude the need for a solvent. Also, gasoline blends in a heated fuel system tends to lead to vapor-lock.

This thread is mostly about WATF, but does go to WMO as well.
ALTERNATIVE FUELs over 7k mies - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums


Originally Posted by bobbywalter View Post
well. its like this....i started out 01-02 with the biodiesel goal. its work...allot of effort i dont have time or room for and its nasty bull**** waste i had to deal with. combine that with the competition even at that time for good oil and the rendering plant started threatening some places about the fact that people have to have a proper licence to haul it off... (a licence to haul dead animals here in mi)....and then add after fawking up a bunch of filters in my psd at 23 a pop i gave up.

combine this with my needs at that time....working 14-18 some times 20 hrs a day with 8 of them going 70-80 mph and 5 kids i just dont have time...my precious days off were at sporting events my children are/were in or riding our motorcycles...fishing--shooting etc........

the waste oil method i can stop at certain trans shops on my normal routes and pump on the run...been basically doing that for 10 years so its not an issue with my normal blend rates at all. no real injector coking. i never had any serious issues till i extended running on 100 percent oil....never had the balls to extended run it till i seen brooks methodology and explanatory.

currently i again run from southern florida to northern michigan as a base work run....often with real clean hyd a can score from there i just run it 100 percent when i leave then 50 the next tank then 30 ish depending on time of year....sometimes i am back to straight by ohio going home in winter.

so...if i can run indefinitely 50 to 100 percent watf/hyd with 3000 psi injectors and modded tips....that makes bio-diesel look real stupid. it only takes 5-6 minutes longer to fill my tank on a pre planned route. instead of going to the gas station i stop at the trans shop.ALTERNATIVE FUELs over 7k mies - Page 36 - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums




i got a pm at a different board about this as it was confusing. poor bastard read the whole thread at diesel place among st many others so i figured i could further muddy or clear up a thing or three.


i am not sure if jeff was referring to me as the trucker either after reading it a few times, but i am a driller on oil/gas exploration rigs and also was self employed in construction exteriors(roofing -siding -window installs etc.)for this comment that is quoted. running from detroit to cinci dayton area daily for quite a spell.

the oil i was getting from florida when we were drilling down there was a clear type of hydro for the gantry units and winches for big boats/ships and like water in clarity. it worked very well as it was with only pump filtering. in my psd it was perfect with nary a mpg variance...the idi gm liked it too but always has a variance in mpg...perceived power.. usually lower.


generally speaking, anything over 30 percent in used filtered oil added to diesel whether watf or motor oil causes maintenance issues which i deal with as it is worth the time and money vs money saved for my situation....
.... mostly just plugged injectors that i swap out or scrape off....

but under 30 percent or near, its minimal and a tank of straight every few tanks of mix keeps things good for me.

so if you rack up over 30k a year in miles, and have a cheap idi or poppet style di setup, it can be a little work, but saves quite a bit of money ime.

your experience and situation may vary. but if you have more time then money careful selection in this realm can gain you more or cost you more. so proceed carefully.


on edit:


this is my first post but i have bought many things from here usually from members via pm and would not have posted in this old thread save the fact it seems relevant as people are reading it and asking questions.. of all places it was at a 4x4 site not even based with diesels at all.
 
#14 · (Edited)
To the OP.....CONSIDER THE SOURCE OF YOUR INFO Carefully.

Given what Jeff has posted I ask this.....Do you own or have you had experience with a VW TDI?

Jeff, have you ever converted a 99.5-2003 or 2003.5-2005 VW tdi? Or do you have any real life experiences with a TDI, or are you merely spewing your belief based on what you can round up on the inrernet, again?
 
#15 ·
:popcorn2::popcorn2::popcorn2::popcorn2::popcorn2::popcorn2::popcorn2:YESSSSS!!!!!! Welcome back jeff. Obiviously subscribed!!!!!!!!!!
 
#27 ·
Jeff, thanks for your feedback too. I like hearing what everyone has to say.
Think of it like this....if you spent $1000 on a CF, your break even point, just to pay for the CF is around 20,000 miles. Just as an example. Thats why you dont see a tremendous amount of people messing with alternative fuels in cars, the ROI is quite distant.
Hey its cool. No offense taken. Please realize that WMO/ATF are a touchy subject around here.
LovinPSD's. I imagine you've figured out that most of us here don't know much about burning ATF.
Well I have no personal experience with ATF ...
As far as a TDI goes never owned one ...
LovinPSDs I agree you should consider your sources.

I also agree with vegginpsd, you will want to have a centrifuge if you are going to process WATF. Back when CFs first came out they were about $1000, but I bought a 55GPH centrifuge from PA biodiesel 9 months ago for less than $200, so shop around. Also, you can save yourself a lot of money on a pressure driven CF if you use compressed air to pressurize a tank containing your WATF to drive it through the CF at the recommended pressure.

Here is a link to Testimonials of people who owned VW/Audi 1;9 & 2:5 TDI's and run them on gasoline blended waste oils.
VW/Audi 1;9 & 2:5 TDI's.

And for the PSD owners here is a link for you.
Ford PSD engines in gasoline-waste oil blends
 
#17 ·
I think you are heading in the right direction thinking more abour a Benz.

The TDI would likely not be a wise choice for anything but D2 or a blend of Biodiesel.

I have no personal experience with Benz diesels, so I will refrain from any advice going forward on them.
 
#18 ·
Still want to know more about ATF than I do a TDI or a MB

No additional info regarding my quoted statement above? Either way if I run alternative fuels I'll be going the extra mile to prep the fuel and whatever the vehicle is... Lets get away from the decision of what car and more into the plan with the ATF, how to best prep it, filter it, make it mimic D2, ect....
 
#19 ·
I do not recomend ATF or WMO as fuel.

Just my humble opinion, I could be wrong.

I will, however, leave you with this.....where do you think the clutch packs and internals from transmissions go when they wear? You got it, into the oil which is then, in theory, collected by filter. If the filtering was efficient enough to keep the oil clean, there would be no need to change oil, thus no ATF to burn. Get the idea here? Filtering will not remove all debris from ATF, and the only way to remove them, in my opinion, is with a magnet to collect the ferrus metals, and for the non ferrus, a CF would likely be the only way.

Think of it like this....if you spent $1000 on a CF, your break even point, just to pay for the CF is around 20,000 miles. Just as an example. Thats why you dont see a tremendous amount of people messing with alternative fuels in cars, the ROI is quite distant.
 
#20 ·
My final filter would be 1 or .5 microns. A tranny filter can't be that small because it wouldn't hardly flow any liquid in a vehicle setup correct?

I intended to include rare earth mags. as part of my settling/filtering setup

Finally, if the new position pulls through i'm looking at probably 30K miles a year at minimum.

I hope you don't take any of my statements as arguing, i just want to learn more about the topic. I find it hard to believe it just shouldn't/can't be done, but I'm interested to hear everyone's opinions.
 
#21 ·
Micron rating of filters is about as reliable as a buck skin condom. I makes you think you are safe, however, its just a number rating on a filter media, likely made in China, stuffed in a filter, marked on a box to make you feel good.

You obviously have your heart set on it, so, go for it, and report your findings.
 
#24 ·
Hey its cool. No offense taken. Please realize that WMO/ATF are a touchy subject around here.

Especially when input from select individuals in added that have proven to know little about the subject. I know enough about it to know when to stay away from discussion, and smart enough to not burn it a engine fuel. :hehe:
 
#23 ·
Ummm...are you saying I need to get rid of my buckskin condoms?? :eek:hnoes:

One of the things that always scared me about ATF is the friction modifiers that are added. Not sure you can filter or cf those out?

Not sure about WMO...

And be very careful listening to anything Jeff says. I'm not sure where he pulled that recipe from but I have a pretty good guess.
 
#25 ·
LovinPSD's. I imagine you've figured out that most of us here don't know much about burning ATF. There are a bunch of us who have been successful with WVO. The ROI is likely there. For example, I'm about $5k into my system with about $20k saved over four years. Not bad.

If you go forward with ATF, I hope you'll post about your process and your results. I am really curious to find out what you learn.

Thanks for putting up with the bickering that plagues the forum these days.
 
#26 ·
Well I have no personal experience with ATF but if I had to try something other then WVO or Bio it would be ATF or hydraulic fluid. Veggin is right you can filter all day long but a centrifuge is what you need to process waste oils.

As far as a TDI goes never owned one but heard of many problems with running anything but D2 or Bio. I would listen to Veggin on that one.

How are going to test to insure your fuel of choice is dewatered??
 
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