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Extreme govt over reach and misinterpretation of their own law....are our trucks next

7K views 59 replies 16 participants last post by  F2502001 
#1 ·
#2 ·
It's already illegal to buy, sell or manufacture any device for our trucks, or any vehicle on the road certified to EPA standards that bypasses the emissions controls for the vehicle. It's also illegal to remove emissions controls from the vehicle. That's not a new thing. It's not misinterpretation of the law, it's called being fined for violating it. I surely didn't see you posting anything crying about VW when they got busted for violating the same law for the same reason. If you did post one, please post a link to it in your reply, should you chose to reply to this.

Do I agree with it? Not at all. I think once I buy a vehicle and am paying insurance and taxes to keep it on the road and pay for the roads, I should be able to do anything to that vehicle that I want to as long as it remains compliant with things like mandatory lighting and such. I certainly don't think its ok to start pulling brake lights off a vehicle but emissions controls that choke the engine and cause thousands and thousands in repairs when they go out? Yea, I'm all for that.
 
#6 ·
One, offroad racing applications are legal. That is what the govt hit. Not the street tuner which Harley will still sell. They told Harley it was their off road racing setup that they got fined for. VW did not do the same thing. VW purposely tricked the emissions machines. Apples and oranges brother. This would be like BPD getting fined for selling an EGR delete kit even though they have all the disclaimers for off road use only.
 
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#3 ·
I like clean air.
 
#22 ·
Or....I don't know.....

Assisting our veterans that are returning from battle, instead of worrying about "refugees".
:thumb:

fixed it for ya. those "refugees" are NOT refugees. clearly they are enemy combatants. to believe otherwise is ignorant folly.

The whole VW thing illustrates the absolute hypocrisy that is our government. Worried about cars that get 40+mpg while the politicians that are pissed off and raising hell ride around in Suburbans and Tahoes that get 9.
we have the tech to create clean burning vehicles that emit such low emissions the current scanners do not register any emissions at all.
why do we not all have these inexpensive vehicles.
TAXES
our criminal syndicate known as gov by most empowered by unconstitutionally empowered bureaucracies like the environMENTAL perversion agency.
we must remember the feral gov receives 12 times what the "greedy" oil companies do in tax money per gallon of fuel purchased. MORE when buying diesel.
from that they pay subsidies amounting to 2 to 5% of the money they extort in fuel taxes as a misdirect for the lieberal morons to latch onto so they can protest the evil greedy oil companies. who work more closely with our feral gov under threat of violence than most people will ever know.
the fact is free market would have cleaned up the air globally if allowed to do so but that reduces the power influence and finances of those who would be kings. truly evil men and women who seek power above all else.
IF free market had been unmolested by over reach and regulation we would have vehicles that get over 200 mpg and run cleaner than a common lawn mower.
but the bureaucracies must continue to employ the multitude of stupid ignorant willful men who would otherwise be unemployable.
the beast will take its pound of flesh.

I still like clean air.
everyone wants clean air except governments who seek power over others
to think otherwise ... :doh:

First, I do believe there has to be some regulation as otherwise we would look like China, but at some point it is over reaching, especially when the EPA has the balls to come out a couple months back and admit they are fully aware that the DPF and SCR systems directly cause engine failures. Now here is my question.....Has all the environmental footprint been taken into account for those failures?? What I mean is say my 6.4 looses a engine due to washed out cylinder walls from the DPF regen procedure (a common issue with 6.4s). Well, now I need a motor....but to do that, the oil has to be recycled, coolant, fuel, trans fluid, P/S fluid, and Freon all from pulling the cab will leak out and have to be disposed of, not to mention the heap of iron and steel that will have to be torn down and recycled into other metal parts. See the carbon footprint there is huge also, and not factored in at all. Eventually you have to wake up and realize that it is all about tax creating income. Add to this that a simple fart from any volcano will dump more NoX and Sulfur into the atmosphere then mankind has combined since existence and its all overreach for money. Now we all fully get WHY the EPA smacked us down in this diesel community. The coal rollin dip chits are to thank. I hate rollin coal. You wont see my 600+hp 6.4 dumpin smoke, in fact it runs pretty damn clean, almost no smoke. That's how all of them should run. There is a happy medium for everyone.

I also find the whole "global warming" issue hilarious.....I mean just based on simple HS level science we know that at one time the grand canyon was covered in ice and had a massive river flowing through it. Now diesel trucks and cars weren't around back then he11 either were people, so what cause the global warming then? Oh that's right nature. Maybe its inevitable. Again I agree that limitation need to be applied or we will look like China or PA back in the industrial revolution. I just don't think forcing people to foot the entire bill is OK.

That brings me to the comment made by Dieselfab. Malpractice is a little bit of a stretch. I believe Illegal fits better. I fail to see how its "malpractice" on the base level of technicians. If the parts were installed correctly and the vehicle was returned to the customer in full working order as they requested, how is it malpractice? If the delete was not installed and the shop and tech took the customers money, that would be malpractice. If the parts were installed wrong and customer paind and the shop didn't rectify the issue, that would be malpractice, but I don't see it as malpractice if the job is done correctly and customer is happy. Now I will fully AGREE that it is a DIRECT violation of FEDRAL law to remove any emissions equipment. That said we have done deletes on 6.0/6.4. Its hard when studding a 6.0/6.4 to push the BP coolers (and believe me we try) when they (the customer) have read that a delete is the only way to be safe with their truck. Now my question to you is what about us 6.4 guys? That is by far the worst platform for emmissions failures that has been released to the public. Nobody knew in 2008 or even 2011 that they would be piston cracking, cylinder washing, EGR failing, tubo smoking, coolant cavitation, front cover eating, radiator blowing monsters, that have these issues DIRECTLY from the emission system on board. What about those customers? To be fully honest with the situation, the only way to make those diesel trucks last is to remove said emission equipment. As much as I love your products, the BP egr coolers for the 6.4 aint gonna fix the other underlying issues of them. For those that spent 40-50K on a diesel truck to haul their horses and work for a living, what about them. We are just supposed to smile and say "sorry but every 150k miles expect to put a motor in"(granted I fully understand that there are 6.4's with higher milage that haven't had failures YET) or trade it in?? I don't think it is a overstep to say that all of us buy these trucks for the long haul. Not to spend 15-20k every 150k miles.

It really doesn't matter, because as long as there is a system on a truck that people want to remove for power and longevity, there will be a company that awnsers that call. Its been happening since the introduction of the automobile, and is a powerful part of what makes Amercia who she is. I find that pretty much every single person has a vice that is considered illegal. It may not be deleting trucks, but its there. NOBODY is perfect at folloing the law all the time. Its inpossible. I am fine with the "malpractice" of deleting these trucks as long as the customer is fully aware of what they are doing. We have a 2pg disclaimer that the customer has to fill out and sign before we will do the work requested. It strictly states that they are to TOW their "Race vehicle" out of our parking lot when the work is completed......now what they do with the keys when they are handed back is up to them. Will this stand up in court if the EPA wants to come shut us down, probably not, but at least all partys are fully aware of what they are doing. When it comes to the 6.0, the BP EGR cooler is a PERFECT way to stay legal and have a reliable and safe vehicle. The 6.4 sorry but not so much. Don't get me wrong the EGR coolers will last most likely longer then the motor, but the rest of the system is a ticking time bomb. A reliable stock 6.4 is a laughable combination.
feakin bravo good sir...
bravo, well said
 
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#8 · (Edited)
This is an absolutely true story...

In 2009, I flew into Copenhagen, Denmark on my way to a university in the central south coast of Sweden. My plan was to rent a vehicle and drive across the bridge. Because of the snow, I booked an SUV. The United Nations Climate Change Conference was starting as I arrived.

Me: "This is a compact. I'm supposed to get an SUV."

Rental Guy: "All we have left is economy cars. The climate change delegates took all of the SUVs."

Me: "Were they carpooling?"

Rental Guy: "No."

Since then - rising temps or not - I think that they are all so full of it that it's running out their ears. Especially Di Caprio.
 
#13 ·
I thought the EPA had no control over off road/competition vehicles. Also who cares about what VW did it would have been a great idea if they did not get caught.
 
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#14 ·
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#17 ·
An interesting fun fact about the Cuyahoga river fire photo that was published in 1969 and was a catalyst for the Clean Water Act is that the photo was not from 1969 at all.

Yes, the river caught fire in 1969 - oil soaked debris ignited by sparks from a passing train. But the fire was put out within about 30 minutes and no known photos of that fire exist. The photo that was published nationally with the story was from an earlier fire in 1952 when the pollution was much worse. By 1969, the river - by all accounts - was already improving.

The Clean Water Act did push things along for cities with major rivers. But, the situation was not necessarily as dire as it was portrayed to be.
 
#18 ·
^^^ true, still gave Cleveland a huge black eye, and the nickname Mistake on the lake. The thing that clean up the Great Lakes though was not the clean water act, it was/is an invasive species called the zebra mussel. million maybe billion of tiny little water filters, they cause problems on water intakes and such but they sure cleaned up the lakes :)
 
#19 ·
Yep, we all like clean air. I just don't like all of the laws that EPA has come up with over the last 40 years.
Doug
 
#20 ·
Mark my words, motorsports have a limited life now.......
 
#21 ·
First, I do believe there has to be some regulation as otherwise we would look like China, but at some point it is over reaching, especially when the EPA has the balls to come out a couple months back and admit they are fully aware that the DPF and SCR systems directly cause engine failures. Now here is my question.....Has all the environmental footprint been taken into account for those failures?? What I mean is say my 6.4 looses a engine due to washed out cylinder walls from the DPF regen procedure (a common issue with 6.4s). Well, now I need a motor....but to do that, the oil has to be recycled, coolant, fuel, trans fluid, P/S fluid, and Freon all from pulling the cab will leak out and have to be disposed of, not to mention the heap of iron and steel that will have to be torn down and recycled into other metal parts. See the carbon footprint there is huge also, and not factored in at all. Eventually you have to wake up and realize that it is all about tax creating income. Add to this that a simple fart from any volcano will dump more NoX and Sulfur into the atmosphere then mankind has combined since existence and its all overreach for money. Now we all fully get WHY the EPA smacked us down in this diesel community. The coal rollin dip chits are to thank. I hate rollin coal. You wont see my 600+hp 6.4 dumpin smoke, in fact it runs pretty damn clean, almost no smoke. That's how all of them should run. There is a happy medium for everyone.

I also find the whole "global warming" issue hilarious.....I mean just based on simple HS level science we know that at one time the grand canyon was covered in ice and had a massive river flowing through it. Now diesel trucks and cars weren't around back then he11 either were people, so what cause the global warming then? Oh that's right nature. Maybe its inevitable. Again I agree that limitation need to be applied or we will look like China or PA back in the industrial revolution. I just don't think forcing people to foot the entire bill is OK.

That brings me to the comment made by Dieselfab. Malpractice is a little bit of a stretch. I believe Illegal fits better. I fail to see how its "malpractice" on the base level of technicians. If the parts were installed correctly and the vehicle was returned to the customer in full working order as they requested, how is it malpractice? If the delete was not installed and the shop and tech took the customers money, that would be malpractice. If the parts were installed wrong and customer paind and the shop didn't rectify the issue, that would be malpractice, but I don't see it as malpractice if the job is done correctly and customer is happy. Now I will fully AGREE that it is a DIRECT violation of FEDRAL law to remove any emissions equipment. That said we have done deletes on 6.0/6.4. Its hard when studding a 6.0/6.4 to push the BP coolers (and believe me we try) when they (the customer) have read that a delete is the only way to be safe with their truck. Now my question to you is what about us 6.4 guys? That is by far the worst platform for emmissions failures that has been released to the public. Nobody knew in 2008 or even 2011 that they would be piston cracking, cylinder washing, EGR failing, tubo smoking, coolant cavitation, front cover eating, radiator blowing monsters, that have these issues DIRECTLY from the emission system on board. What about those customers? To be fully honest with the situation, the only way to make those diesel trucks last is to remove said emission equipment. As much as I love your products, the BP egr coolers for the 6.4 aint gonna fix the other underlying issues of them. For those that spent 40-50K on a diesel truck to haul their horses and work for a living, what about them. We are just supposed to smile and say "sorry but every 150k miles expect to put a motor in"(granted I fully understand that there are 6.4's with higher milage that haven't had failures YET) or trade it in?? I don't think it is a overstep to say that all of us buy these trucks for the long haul. Not to spend 15-20k every 150k miles.

It really doesn't matter, because as long as there is a system on a truck that people want to remove for power and longevity, there will be a company that awnsers that call. Its been happening since the introduction of the automobile, and is a powerful part of what makes Amercia who she is. I find that pretty much every single person has a vice that is considered illegal. It may not be deleting trucks, but its there. NOBODY is perfect at folloing the law all the time. Its inpossible. I am fine with the "malpractice" of deleting these trucks as long as the customer is fully aware of what they are doing. We have a 2pg disclaimer that the customer has to fill out and sign before we will do the work requested. It strictly states that they are to TOW their "Race vehicle" out of our parking lot when the work is completed......now what they do with the keys when they are handed back is up to them. Will this stand up in court if the EPA wants to come shut us down, probably not, but at least all partys are fully aware of what they are doing. When it comes to the 6.0, the BP EGR cooler is a PERFECT way to stay legal and have a reliable and safe vehicle. The 6.4 sorry but not so much. Don't get me wrong the EGR coolers will last most likely longer then the motor, but the rest of the system is a ticking time bomb. A reliable stock 6.4 is a laughable combination.
 
#26 ·
Oh, geez. @toren302 nailed this one solid. This has been the biggest gripe of mine with all of the environmental flag waving. I want to add...

The full carbon footprint concept is one that seems to be tragically lost on most people. I ask people with electric cars if their vehicle is good for the environment. "Oh, yes! No pollution!"

What they really mean is "No pollution that I can see or conceptualize."

That electricity is coming from somewhere - likely a coal burning furnace. Air pollution aside, many people don't know that - over time - a coal facility emits far more radiation than nuclear plants. Electricity delivery is not anything to brag about either - especially when there are charge pumps and AC/DC conversions in the pipeline. Making a battery is an environmentally horrendous endeavor and disposing of one is even worse.

But... since they don't actually *see* any of that, it's all good!

I once filled in as a lecturer for a high school economics class once a week for a few months. One day, I said to the kids, "Hey... Do any of you recycle? 'Cause I just burn my newspaper in the back yard..."

[collective GASP and looks of disgust]

I asked them why should I recycle. "Because, it's good to recycle!"

"Always? Okay... let's take a closer look at it..."

We have to truck the recycling to the recycler... Sort... Truck the papers to the pulping mill... Leech the ink out with chemicals... Burn the leeching chemicals... Repulp the paper... All for a paper grade that you wouldn't wipe your butt with it.

Is it good to recycle newspaper? Sometimes. It depends upon how far you are from the pulping mill. I hope that those kids learned something that day. They seemed to. 'Cause that knee jerk crap is nauseating.

So, back to @toren302's point that I completely co-opted. A sober consideration of full impact is everything.


Edited to add...
When I started writing this, @Patriot had not posted above. Dang him! ...although clearly I agree!
 
#28 ·
Mostly, I would've credited you for jumping on your bandwagon, also.
 
#30 ·
Not to mention they STILL burn gasoline......anyone got the stats handy of how much worse gasoline is to burn than diesel? FWIW, I do my part and try to drive my Harley. It gets 40 MPGS too.....
 
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#33 ·
but....but .... al gore says the trees of the forest are CAUSING pollution in lake tahoe :eek:hnoes:
he got 22 million to proclaim this it must be so ... right? >:)
 
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#36 ·
hey I know what i know and believe what i believe and will not apologize for that.:dunno:
but i do not claim to be ALL knowing by any stretch.
I would and have in fact differed to your wisdom on the 6.0 numerous times.
if you disagree feel free to say so. if you want to know what experience has caused me to develop the beliefs I have, feel free to ask. I do not demand or expect totalitarian agreement with me or anyone else and am open to new info and ideas.
to quote owedumbo but actually mean it...
I am NOT a dictator :D
 
#39 ·
well then
that's different...
never mind :D
in best rosanne rosanna danna voice :hehe:
 
#40 · (Edited)
#41 ·
hey I remember that article. :rofl:
good to know on the passat.
we have a friend of the family that developed a system he used to get 218 mpg in the 70's
first the oil companies came then the spooks...
the biggest problem he had with the thing in years fo driving until he was killed :look:
was he had to change the gas same time as the oil if he bought too much :thumb:
I know the tech is out there but we are talking trillions in tax dollars they are not letting go :doh:
 
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