Big Oil

[pro99line]

Not trying to be rude by fuel atomization has nothing to actually due with fuel/air ratio. It is actually the mist or spray of the fuel into the combustion chamber. Better fuel atomization means your have a finer mist or spray of fuel instead of having larger droplets. That is why the system states it gives you better fuel atomization because it is forcing the fuel through small holes which will give you a finer mist. I would never try this system but had to point out the meaning of fuel atomization so everyone understands. That is the reason when increasing your fuel pressure the truck runs better, because you are producing more of a fine mist to the combustion chamber and the fuel will actually burn more complete. The deinition of atomization if anyone is interested is "The break down of liquid into a mist-like vapor."

[Ramsmoker]

I have been watching to see if the guy tangled with will post when he actully gets his running. Putting the unbelievable pressure aside I have a problem with the volume of the "BIG OIL" system. What is the volume needed to run the injection system thru a normal rpm range. I need to run a gauge when I install the oil crossover line to watch the pressure. I figured if it goes up and down there is a volume problem and that would validate the bigger pump theory. You know it's volume against resistance equals pressure. I still don't know how the oil system works for the injector rails. Does it dead head in the rails or does it have a controlled bleed off back to the oil pan? Sorry, i'm a little slow but I got up today from a short sleep with this running through my head. I finally distracted myself by installing a TS 6 position chip in my Excursion. It didn't work. With this new power I'm ready to go bigger. She'll wipe her feet from a rolling 10mph clear into second gear!! Pretty cool for an 8000# truck.

[Klutch]

You guys don't understand what "Big Oil" is about. The guy Ramsmoker is refering to did not claim 500hp or 450hp with stock injectors. He probalbly makes 380-400hp with the custom tunes from Jody. If you want to understand what the hype is about you should phone someone that sells Big Oil and they will explain, but here is a little break down of what I know.
Your stock HPOP should be supplying 2800-3000PSI of oil at wide open throttle. Know lots don't and even worse high hp chips/programmers call for more oil and the HPOP can't keep up. Not only are you losing the pressure but that is because your pump can't supply the volume to maintain pressure. So Big Oil is either two pumps together or there is one large pump that Swamp's builds and then with these you are able to maintain the volume you need to use high hp chips. Now if you were to run a 60hp chip and your stock hpop is in good health you would be fine. Most of the people running Big Oil are running stock pressures. All those 10k,18k,Edge Ez boxes are tricking the pcm into supplying more hpo and that further taxes the hpop, which may work for low end power, but you will notice the power falls off on the top end very bad. Furthemore big oil helps also by better atomization and less timing advance is needed in programing to get hp, which gives a much broader power band. Everyone that has bi oil says you have no idea what it's like until you experience it.
I read in another post something about 25,000psi of pressure, this is not true. A stock injector has a injection ratio of 7:1, so the injection ratio at 3000psi(which is optimum hpop pressure) would be 21,000psi, not the HPO pressure.
I'm not knocking anyone or trying to start an argument but you guys really don't know what is going on, and should listen to some of those people on the other site, if you want some knowledge on these engines.
That guy Ramsmoker had that heated discussion with knows what he is talking about. What you are trying to do is like the 10k mod and is only goin to tax the hpop more and you will lose more top end hp. This big oil is what has advanced the high hp 7.3 were they are, but there is tremendous gains for the medium hp to stock stucks as well, you should really investigate it more if thinking about buying big oil or just care to have the knowledge.

[mschn99]

i thought i would post my questions in both threads....so here it is

very clear and thourough explanation.....im still not sold, but what you just stated at least makes sence mechanically. now i do have a few things im wondering about....first of all, by increasing the available pressure, and also tricking the IPR into allowing the extra pressure, that all creates more oil heat. a stock truck is capable of having the pcm go into a "fueling correction" if it sees the oil temp sensor having a high readout. with the increased pressures comes higher oil temps......and im curious how you are getting around this because it is a failsafe to protect the motor, and even if the EOT sensor fails, the pcm has a stratagy in it to monitor the coolant temp to verify if the engine temp has been abnormally high......so there is a check and balance to it and a failsafe in case one of the sensors is not funcioning correctly. also, im curious if you guys have found some magic aftermarket fix for the high pressure oil pump o rings since they have a habit of blowing out on stock trucks......at least on the dual system pump, they would still be there and with the higher pressures available i would see them as a very weak link in the system. im also curious how many more injector failures you see with this system if you stay with the stock injectors....i see a reasonable amount of them at work as it is. its not an epidemic by any means, but they do fail. i would think that this would really strain the CAC injecto (#8) as it is part of the high pressure oil system. i would be also curious how the low pressure system handles the added oil requirments of the HPOP.....

your imput is greatly appreciated, and i like the way everything you said was clear and not calling anybody out.....just stating what you knew and how you understand it as working. if you would look into these things for me and let me know, and im sure i will think of some other things to ask......and welcome to the board

[Klutch]

What I know on the IPR is limited. What you have to understand is that you are not running any higher pressure than a stock hpop is supposed to run, which is 3000PSI. My logical thinking on the set-ups, as far as the heat goes, is that you are know using two pumps to do the job of one, there resulting in less work or stress on the pumps, which should result in less heat from the two pumps. I also don't think they are tricking the IPR as it is seeing normal pressures. The main thing about HPO is that the lack of volume drops the pressure and that is the reason for big oil or twin pumps. Now if you took two stock trucks and one had a healthy pump and one did not, the one with the bad pump would definatly see a big gain. If your stock pump can maitain 3000PSI with a hot chip aT WOT then I wouldn't justify going to big oil unless you were looking for more power with B code injectors. Most of the people out there with hot chips will see a tremendous drop in power at WOT, and if you put a scanner on to monitor your HPO at WOT you will be able to see it loud and clear.
On the IPR I know one big oil uses 2 IPR's and others use1.

For the rest of you questions I don't know as I do not have one or build them. You would have to contact the manufactures to find out. I do know there has been a few failures, haven't heard anything on the o-rings, but there a quite a few out there running big oil and lots with thousands of miles on them. Haven't heard of big oil contributing to failures of other engine components. They say with big oil you have a much more broad powerband.

Hope this helps.

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Last edited by Klutch : 02-04-2006 at 01:22 PM.

[mschn99]

Originally Posted by Klutch

What I know on the IPR is limited. What you have to understand is that you are not running any higher pressure than a stock hpop is supposed to run, which is 3000PSI. My logical thinking on the set-ups, as far as the heat goes, is that you are know using two pumps to do the job of one, there resulting in less work or stress on the pumps, which should result in less heat from the two pumps. I also don't think they are tricking the IPR as it is seeing normal pressures. The main thing about HPO is that the lack of volume drops the pressure and that is the reason for big oil or twin pumps. Now if you took two stock trucks and one had a healthy pump and one did not, the one with the bad pump would definatly see a big gain. If your stock pump can maitain 3000PSI with a hot chip aT WOT then I wouldn't justify going to big oil unless you were looking for more power with B code injectors. Most of the people out there with hot chips will see a tremendous drop in power at WOT, and if you put a scanner on to monitor your HPO at WOT you will be able to see it loud and clear.
On the IPR I know one big oil uses 2 IPR's and others use1.

i got another buddy of yours asking me to call him to explain, ill post later about what i think......i gotta eat lunch and have a beer first

[mschn99]

k, i called the guy and he explained the big oil to me. it, in my opinion and based on how the motor funcitons......is a benificial mod for extreme power. this said, he flat out told me that 100k is max expected life for a motor that is running the mod he installs...assuming it is run hard like someone who would do this mod would. he says that by 100k, the blocks end up grenaded....they cant handle the power for any longer.

basically the basis for their mod is that most HPOP's will not keep up with the demand of the injectors. he also said that the vast majority of the guys are not running stock injectors. they are using the higher potential oil flow, and the fact the the oil flow can be sustained at WOT for the length of the time it is at WOT.......to create a harder injector push, creating a finer, shorter, and more usable spray that is bigger due to the better injectors and the fact that there is enough oil pressure to drain them completely. he claims that there is enough air charge available from the stock turbo to ignite and burn this fuel efficiently. he also said, and i would back this up....that since the fuel is more burnable, that there is actually lower exhaust gas temps and no black smoke.....if no unburnt fuel is entering the exhaust, then that theory would be right on.

he is also basically making you a custom tuned PCM to go with the system that will allow for everything he does to work properly and efficiently.

basically this is an extreme mod that will greatly shorten the life of your motor and is mainly for guys who have enough money to have toy "race trucks". it is not for guys towing average trailers looking for a little more, or guys who are just looking for a little extra power to blow a rice burner away....this is a major engine mod that while VERY much adds to the power of the motor, is in no way shape or form a thing for a guy who just wants a hot diesel to do......he gave me a lot more technical info, but i would be typing pages to tell it all....if you have any questions, ask me and i will answer what i know and my opinon, but essentially i feel this is a great mod for a guy looking to build "hot rod" type motors.....its not for a guy who wants a motor to last..........Marc

[super_stroke]

i dont think ive ever seen a "big oil" pump on a street truck. i have seen and heard of guys that do truck pulls using the "stealth " oil pump. and they dont use anything near stock injectors. needles to say, these motors wont see 100K miles.

[Klutch]

I don't know who gave you that info, he does sound like he knows what he is talking about. I disagree that it is only for modded trucks and the life expectancy of 100k on a truck with big oil. Yes with bigger injectors and all that other stuff, not on a truck with the usual stuff like a good programmed chip. There is proof of gains on stock trucks(stock injectors+turbo), and I have talked with a lot of people with big oil and they would have to disagree just the same as I do, not with the mechanics, but with what I have stated. As far as it being an extreme mod that also is not true, depending on what the person is using big oil for.

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Last edited by Klutch : 02-04-2006 at 05:02 PM.

[mschn99]

Originally Posted by super_stroke

i dont think ive ever seen a "big oil" pump on a street truck. i have seen and heard of guys that do truck pulls using the "stealth " oil pump. and they dont use anything near stock injectors. needles to say, these motors wont see 100K miles.

actually, i was also told today that those "stealth" pumps are a pain to deal with for starting the truck........that doesnt soud like a good stock idea either, just pulls and such as you stated.......

and back to the stock injectors....ect....why put all that money into something to get a gain you could get with other, less invasive things......if your not going to do the injectors.....i dont see the point....just dumped a lot of money into something to have it half done and still potentially shortened the life of the motor.....