performance questions

[Klutch]

There are still some posts here that show that some people still aren't getting it. Not bashing just trying to shed some light here. What I, Dr Miller,and I think Luke and Wildman all would agree on is that $50 is a step in the wrong direction, 18k mod is old news, there are better programs out that do better than anything with a 18k mod. I understand people can't afford $2000 on big oil, but why throw $50 in the wrong direction when you can spend a little more and get a proper tune. Ramsmoker, I'm not trying to be a smarta$$ here, but are you standing so firmly because you have the 18k mod. Heck I have hybrids, but I think b codes and big oil is the way to go. There are also no inconsistant claims here, you obviously don't know details about injectors, and it looks foolish when posts things about them.
I really don't see what the problem is to think highly of big oil, is there rules against it, it has done wonders to propel the 7.3 into the stage that guys like Lott are in, which has benefits for others. You guys are the ones that won't drop the big oil subject, we aren't trying to push or explain it anymore and I said that many times, but I still don't think everyone understands the pros and the lack of cons of big oil. So let's just drop it.
Know the 18k mod is a step in the wrong direction for many, but you think it's great, and we can't convince you otherwise, fine. I still do beleive people here truly don't understand how that works either, maybe I'm wrong, but some of these posts show that I'm not. Let's drop it too.

All the people like myself and dr miller are doing is trying to help others and we get bashed for it, I've said it before and I really do think there is some catching up to do here. No one is trying to be on a pedestal or anything, I just think there are hard facts that are being missed and need to shared or people go find it from the people that are making good useable power with these engines. Things change everyday and people find new and better ways do accomplish things. Heck since I've owned my 7.3 I've tried 5 different programs. Hopefully the childish posts can stop, I think it is only stopping other knowledgeable people from posting there info as well, if not then carry on.

[Ramsmoker]

I could be wrong here but the 18k in the end controls the IPR to hold the valves shut longer to utilize the oil thats allready there. There is no jacking up the pressure in the HPOP. it is simply a pump that verys its volume with RPM. Volume against resistance is pressure. I have said many many times that I understand the advantage of big oil. Read back in this thread, you will not find where i have said that it wouldn't improve performance. You guys weren't giving us a very good view by name calling and bashing. What do you do when someone hits you in the face? you hit back. I didn't want any heated arguement. I went out on my own and read what I could andhad e-mail dialog with the vendors. It was a positive experiance. Other members that share ideas thew PM were doing the same thing. We think its great. But like the message here I am replying to, your bashing a mod with no valid reason. For someone that has a strict budget, this is a great kick in the pants. When you see the price of chips and programmers, this is a steal. Like twildman said and he speaks for the majority. I don't have that kind of money to throw around so I have 230cc injectors. This is the though pattern and path that the majority want to take. It is bag for the buck. I have also said this many times trough this discussion, I'd jump on this in a heart beat if I wasn't putting two kids through school. But you just don't get it.

[Klutch]

Originally Posted by Ramsmoker

I could be wrong here but the 18k in the end controls the IPR to hold the valves shut longer to utilize the oil thats allready there. There is no jacking up the pressure in the HPOP. it is simply a pump that verys its volume with RPM. Volume against resistance is pressure. I have said many many times that I understand the advantage of big oil. Read back in this thread, you will not find where i have said that it wouldn't improve performance. You guys weren't giving us a very good view by name calling and bashing. What do you do when someone hits you in the face? you hit back. I didn't want any heated arguement. I went out on my own and read what I could andhad e-mail dialog with the vendors. It was a positive experiance. Other members that share ideas thew PM were doing the same thing. We think its great. But like the message here I am replying to, your bashing a mod with no valid reason. For someone that has a strict budget, this is a great kick in the pants. When you see the price of chips and programmers, this is a steal. Like twildman said and he speaks for the majority. I don't have that kind of money to throw around so I have 230cc injectors. This is the though pattern and path that the majority want to take. It is bag for the buck. I have also said this many times trough this discussion, I'd jump on this in a heart beat if I wasn't putting two kids through school. But you just don't get it.

I never name called anyone. I'm not pushing big oil anymore, if you understand it that's great. You are missing the valid point of the 18k mod though. I completely understand and have tried to explain what is happening with 18k mods. Wildman also knows what happens with the 18k mod and has posted about it. I don't like it for a very valid reason. What is wrong with that, that is what I don't get. Again you gain some bottom end with 18k mod, but with certain programs out there you wouldn't even get that, and you definately lose on the top end power because you hpo is falling off faster and not holding as much pressure. When I tested with my latest tune, with the chip and 18k mod, I could only hold 1400psi, without the 18k mod I can hold 2400psi. My bottom end stayed the same and my top end was stronger without the 18k mod. So I guess you could say, yes, with some programs there is a benefit with a 18k mod for some bottom end, but your taking a hit on the top end. So this is my point, which is very much valid. Also, with a good tune from whoever you like, you can have that bottom end and stronger top end that a 18k mod stacked can provide. Now I know someone is going to say well who runs there truck at WOT all the time. Well, not everyone. You want to talk about useable power, look at it this way. If your pulling 10,000# up a decent grade and you need a little more throttle to get up the hill, a truck with a 18k mod is going to have it's hpop max out on it's duty cycle and only maintain maybe 1500psi and be down on power, up on heat and smoke, and they would have to back out of the throttle, were as a truck without won't have the hpo fall off so much and have better power through the better atomization, therefore keeping smoke and heat down, and being able to stay on the throttle.

I just think you would be surprised if you did some dyno testing on what I've talked about. I've done a little testing of my own and that is why it makes sense to me. I fully understand how all these systems work, and what some of these mods do and how it affects different things, and this is all just my opinion, take it or leave it, no bashing, no hard feelings.

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Last edited by Klutch : 03-01-2006 at 10:58 AM.

[Ramsmoker]

Tel me then, what is the volume output of the stock HPOP and what is the big oil pumps. Also what cubic inch are both pumps. The testing you have done, was this on the rollers? The thing I'm not understanding from you is the demand on the HPOP you talk about. The 18k controls the oil returning from rails. The injectors don't use oil, they are actuated by it. Holding it back with the IPR just raises the pressure. Thats the only effect it has on the HPOP. If big oil runs constant 3000# pressure in the rails, thats harsh. I'm going to put my gauge on and go driving again.

[Rodslinger]

Guess this is the wrong thread to ask a question about a cup holder isn't it?
Sorry, ignore me - my brain is hurting from information friggin overload but I'm enjoying everyones thoughts on everything.

[Klutch]

Big oil is two stock pumps runnin together. Swamp's sells a big single that can produce more than a stocker. My testing wasn't done on rollers. I went and made some runs at wide open throttle watching what the hpo is doing. The problem is one hpop is not keeping up with the demand for oil, if it could move enough to keep up with whatever the different mods are calling for wether it be injectors,high hp program, or 18k mod stacked then there would be proper pressure. Because of the lack of volume from high demand it can't maintain pressure and that's when things suffer.

I would like to back track a little here. One thing I haven't noticed here or tested myself is the use of 18k mod all by itself. I would have to wonder that it might net some gains, I don't know, but if it did I guess it would be useful if one was to go that route.

I don't think that there is a constant 3000psi on the rails as the pumps are in direct relation to rpm.

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Last edited by Klutch : 03-01-2006 at 01:51 PM.

[Ramsmoker]

Ok but what size are they. Gallons per minute cubic inches. I have tons of stuff from my trucks over the years. I have a cool little Cessna pump at .75 cubic inch. Its small and light weight, moves 4.5 gallons a minute. Will push 5000psi all day and short term up to 10,000psi. I have others but I need a starting point.

[Klutch]

I don't have specs on that stuff, you need more someone knowledgeable than me, sorry.

[twildman]

The below explanation of the 10k mod which grew into the 18k mod should explain everything.


So what does it do?!

It tricks the computer on the truck to supply a higher pressure to the injectors
effectively giving the fuel a little extra kick into the cylinder.
On a completly stock truck, it should be good for about 30HP and 100 lb/ft of Torque
If you have any chips or tuners, the effect will be slim to none as the ICP is already
being modifed by the chip/tuner in most circumstances.

UPDATE!

Some other tinkers have found that the 10k mod does in fact give you a little extra low end
but at a sacrifice to top end power. Every truck is different and you may need to play around
to find exactly what your truck likes. If you dont have Gauges, then I wouldnt stack mods like this

[drmiller100]

ok, try again.

you NEED to inject diesel into the engine at very high pressures. The higher the pressures you inject the diesel, the more it atomizes. How much pressure? Lets make up a number of 21,000 psi at WOT.

How does ford do this? They use a needle valve thingy that pushes the fuel in. What pushes the oil? Why the HPOP oil does. How far that little needle thingy moves controls how much fuel gets squirted. The distance it moves is controlled by the PCM, or computer.

But, every time the needle valve thingy squirts diesel, it uses a little of hte HPOP oil to do that. When the HPOP oil has done it's job, it is returned to the crankcase oil. it doesn't get burned.

Where does this HPOP oil come from? Well, there is a pump, called the HPOP pump. And there is regulator, which is nothing more then a computer controlled leak in the HPOP oil.

All this is great. Except. Remember the regulator? Well, we can full the computer into telling the regulator to run at a higher pressure. This is EXACTLY what the 18k or 10k mod does.
Or, we can reprogram the computer to just flat RUN at a higher pressure. this is what all the tunes do. The more pressure, the better teh atomization, the better teh truck runs.

Also, except. On a stock truck, with a complete GOOD system, you will never run out of HPOP oil. However, one way to get more horsepower is to write a tune that squirts more diesel into the engine.

In order to squirt more diesel, the needle thingy needs to move further. No worries, there is plenty of stroke available.
BUT, when the needle thingy moves further, it uses more oil. The engine reaches a point where the PCM is telling the injectors to move so much, that the HPOP oil pump can't maintain the pressure that the regulator is trying to make.
Think of a squirt gun. If you make the end of the barrel too big, we lose all of our pressure.

What happens next? well, we keep squirting the fuel, but now instead of the optimal 21,000 PSI, it is only getting squirted at 10,000 psi. no big deal, except the fuel won't be atomized.
when diesel isn't atomized, it takes longer to burn the big droplets, which means it is still burning when it gets to teh turbo, causing huge EGT's and less power. The good news is you have plenty of boost, but still, not complete combustion.

So, the 18k mod, or 10k mod might add a little power, because you are raising the fuel injection pressures. BUT, there is a limit, because sooner or later you are going ot want to just flat inject more fuel. To do that, you need to change injection length, and the easiest way to do that is buy tunes. If you have tunes, you can set whatever pressure you want, so it really isn't necessary to stack the 10k mod and a good tune. I think it might be possible to have too high of a pressure by stacking the two. If the pressure could safely be higher, why doesn't the tuner just crank it up more????

analogy. We want to put out a fire with a firehose. The 18k mod is finetuning the nozzle teh fireman is running. For sure worth doing.

Big oil is swapping out the 2 inch diameter hose for a 6 inch hose, at the same pressure. Instead of 20 gallons per minute, the fireman now has 100 gallons per minute to put out the fire.

Now the fireman can put a 3 inch nozzle at the end and really put out some water on something.

If the fireman was to put a 3 inch nozzle on his 2 inch hose, his pressure would be worthless, and he couldn't squirt his water past his shoe tips. Even if the firman played with the hydrant opening the valve, with that 2 inch hose, he is gonna be limited as to how many gallons per minute he can get on the fire.