Ideal Stage 3 Hybrid Injectors for Garrett GTP38R? - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 5 Old 04-25-2012, 08:09 PM Thread Starter Rookie
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Thumbs up Ideal Stage 3 Hybrid Injectors for Garrett GTP38R?

I know this is a tried & tested upgraded path, so I was wondering which Stage 3 hybrids (i.e. CCs & nozzle size e.g. 238/80, 238/100, 250/100) are best suited to the Garrett GTP38R turbo?

At some point in the future, after I have beefed up my trans, I plan to get the Garrett GTP 38R (probably with 1.0 A/R housing to retain reasonable spool up time while also reducing EGTs some). I am not sure yet whether I want to do a valvetrain upgrade (Comp Cams 910 valve springs & heavy duty pushrods), though I obviously would, if not doing so is inadvisable. I may try & stick with my stock HPOP if it can supply enough pressure, but since my Excursion has ~ 150k on it already, I would consider upgrading to a Stealth SRP 1.1 HPOP. Also, at what boost pressure / power levels are head studs advisable?

Ideally, I'd like to make 500 whp & 1000 wtq, though that is more because those numbers are nice & round rather than a specific need to make those numbers exactly. My main use is as a daily driver, and it would be nice to get somewhere in a hurry when desired (i.e. something akin to a street rod setup), though I would like the ability to bumper pull up to 10k lbs, even though my occasional use load is actually closer to ~ 6k lbs (race car on open trailer). Fuel mpg is a consideration, though not an overriding factor, as the 8" lift, 37" offroad tires, 4.56 gears & roof rack already put a damper on that, and will never yield great mpg.

I obviously understand I would need special tunes to handle the upgraded single shot injectors, and would likely go with either a DP Tuner F6 (I like the ability to be emailed tunes to download & try out, and for tweaks to current tuning) or one of the TS 6-position chips from one of the respected vendors e.g. Tony Wildman, Matt @ Gearhead, Bill @ PHP, Jonathan @ Beans etc. I do have boost, EGT & trans gauges installed & hooked up.

Edit: I forgot to mention that my Excursion is a 2000, so I assume though have not verified for sure that it has forged rods, rather than PMRs (I think pretty much all MY 2000s had forged rods, no?).

Anyway, I am wondering which Stage 3 hybrids (i.e. CCs & nozzle size e.g. 238/80, 238/100, 250/100) are ideally suited to the Garrett GTP38R turbo? I am tempted to just get the 250/100 Stage 3 hybrids, so I have some room to grow in the future if desired, since it seems most tunes can be programed to simply inject less diesel if necessary. However, given that I am probably not going to upgrade the turbo to anything more elaborate than the Garrett GTP38R turbo, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point of upgrading beyond, say, 238/80s if it is the case that the 238/80s are already able to supply more fuel than needed at reasonable injector duty cycles, when maxing out the GTP38R. If it makes any difference, the injectors I would get would probably be reman'd Full Force Diesel / Casserlys.

So, which Stage 3 hybrids do people suggest for my intended setup & use?


P.S. Any feedback on the 1.0 A/R housing vs. the larger 1.15 housing for Garrett GTP38R turbo? I am currently thinking that the 1.0 A/R housing is most likely the right choice for me, as it would retain quicker spool up for driving around town, and it's cheaper. But if e.g. the difference in spool up is marginal, and the 1.15 A/R housing significantly reduces EGTs or surging, I could be convinced to go with the 1.15 A/R housing. Any thoughts or feedback from those who have run either the 1.0 or 1.15 A/R housings or if there is even anyone that has tried both & can provide a comparison?

Last edited by xbox73; 04-25-2012 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Add Excursion is MY 2000, so most likely forged rods, rather than PMRs
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post #2 of 5 Old 04-25-2012, 08:17 PM
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Some great questions here. Sub'd.

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PHP Chip, Full Force Stage 2's, 38R, Tymar, ISSPRO EV2 Boost/Pyro/Tranny, Diamond Eye Duals 4"
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post #3 of 5 Old 04-25-2012, 08:41 PM
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238's 80 or 100 should be able to max out the 38r. If the price is the same between the 238's and 250's, get the 250's so you have some room to grow. If I wasn't sinking all my money into a D60, I would have a set of 238/100 Rosewood's with springs, rods and studs to complement my 38r.

On the 38r, it comes with a 1.0 wastegated housing, crank the gate down before installation, it ships really loose. The 1.15 would probably be needed for 500hp.

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post #4 of 5 Old 04-26-2012, 03:17 AM
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First, skip the DP-Tuner. Google DP-tuner and follow the links to forums, and that's probably enough said.

Emailed tunes are available from just about anyone now, with a chip burner. Add 275 for the burner, but subtract the price for the expensive F6.

Second, do some reading on which tuner you are going to go with. If it was me, out of the options you named, I'd go with Jonathan @ Beans. Beans is an hour and change from my house so... Makes tweaks easy, plus he's an awesome tuner. I run Beans tunes.

Once you've figured out who you want to do the tuning for you, email or PM them and ask which hybrid they'd choose for that turbo.

And I'll tell you right now, you're gonna want the 1.15 housing if you're throwing hybrids in the truck. The 1.0 will work, but drive pressure is gonna be a mother to get under control without expensive external gates.

Also, while I absolutely recommend studs and springs... I'd keep stock pushrods, if I wasn't upgrading rockers at the same time.

Reason being, it's like a fuse in the valve train. If you have severe backpressure issues, or a tune doesn't downshift on time, even though you just dumped a crapload of fuel in there and spiked your drivepressure... And you get a little piston to valve contact with an aftermarket pushrod, you're gonna break the rocker arm.

If you're at high RPM's when that rocker arm breaks, expect the cam to throw the lifter right up out of the retainer when it all lets go.

A stock pushrod will just bend. And they're a dime a dozen. I have 40+ stock pushrods sittin in the garage lol.

All that said, before I had unrelated issues with my stock forged engine that led me to doing other things...

I was going to do a 38R or a ford van turbo (1.15 housing) and 250/200's.

With a quality tune, most of the fuel in that injector will hit the cylinder and burn before the piston has traveled far past TDC, which means a more complete burn. A more complete burn lowers drive pressure, making for happier turbo's and valve trains.

If I wasn't able to control drivepressure with tuning and proper injection, I would have considered doing an external gate(s). But, I was always planning on going up in stages with that engine so gates were gonna be a necessity sooner or later anyway.

Anyway, food for thought there.

I'd go with a 250 any way you look at it. You can do any nozzle you want, on any injector you want. I know a guy running a 300/100. WOT in a 3xx HP tune, with a trailer on, he doesn't see over 1000 EGT.

Moral of the story, any injector with up to a 200% nozzle will do what it's told to do, period. So, if it's not doing what you want, your tunes, or your truck (ICP sensor, IPR, EOT sensor, etc...) need attention.

It's not the injectors fault.

Last edited by chvyrkr; 04-26-2012 at 03:22 AM.
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post #5 of 5 Old 04-26-2012, 04:45 AM

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Ok can you stop sayin stage 3, its one of the things that bug me. But in my honest opinion if you dont want to have to do studs, springs, hpop the do a set of 200/80. Once you get into the 238+ range you start runnin into needin those things. Also you might look into an sd66 from beans. Basically a journal bearing 38r but it has a 1.15 exhaust housing and larger turbine wheel which is crucial for keepin drive pressure low.
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