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Old 10-29-2012, 12:23 PM
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Where to go from here?

I need help diagnosing a drive-ability problem on a 1997 F250 with 136,000 mi.

Here are the symptoms:
1. lope
2. Consumes oil (1 qt every 160 mi or so)
3. slow throttle response
4. Sluggish acceleration
5. knock at high RPM's
6. smokes on first start
7. fuel bowl is cloudy and filter turns dark quickly.

Here's the problem: It doesn't do it all the time; some times it runes normal (maybe a day out of the week).

Here is what I've done so far:

1. checked compression with the highest at 388 and the lowest at 364
2. replaced turbo
3. turbo pedestal o-rings
4. gutted the EBP valve completely
5. replaced injector o-rings
6. replaced fuel filter
7. cleaned fuel screen in bowl
8. new up pipes, 3" down pipe, and 4" straight pipe
9. GP's and GPR check good
10. New VC gaskets and UVC harnesses

When I had it on a snap-on brick, I noticed the Injection oil pressure was at about 580 and the IPR was at 9%; 9 % I think is low. I'm not real familiar with how the HPOP works with regards to regulation of the pressure to the injectors via the sensors and the PDM.

For possible causes, this is where my imagination is taking me.

1. IDM
2. week injectors
3. IPR
4. HPOP
5. And I just don't know(tune maybe).

I'm trying to avoid throwing any more money into this truck than necessary, and don't have the practical experience to diagnose these symptoms. So any advice on how to test to elimination possible causes, additional causes, and knowledge about probability of causes, is appreciated.

I'ts bone stock except for what I told you.

Thanks for your help.

Last edited by Monegrand; 10-29-2012 at 06:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2012, 03:02 PM
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Your Sig doesn't have any helpful info (like none, please complete your Sig to speed up future diagnosis). Does it lope like its missing a cylinder or like it has a big cam? Does it smoke any time except cold start? What color smoke? When you had the turbo off what did the inside of the down pipe look like (dry, wet, oily, HEAVY soot)? What did your intake look like (same for downpipe except for soot)? What is driving HPOP psi? What is your estimated MPGs? Does the truck still have the stock CAT? Any leaks in the valley or to the ground? When you are looking into the fuel bowl was it first thing in the morning or after a drive? Cloudy could be oil/water in the fuel or just tiny bubbles in suspension. Does the cloudy fuel go away if you let the truck sit for an hour?

Idling ICP (HPOP) pressure is ok above 500psi. IPR needs to be less than 40% and the lower the better. 9% is awesome. Pull the dipstick and look/smell for fuel in the oil. Open the cooling system and look/smell for oil/fuel.

Lets start there and anyone else can jump in too.
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Old 10-29-2012, 03:17 PM
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9% duty IPR duty cycle at 580 psi is right around that of a new pump, so no worries there.
IPR duty cycle is a measure of the amount of oil passing through the bypass circuit of the high pressure pump. 0% duty cycle means the valve is completely open, and oil is bypassing the injectors and returning to oil sump. 100% duty cycle means the valve is closed, will all of the high pressure oil being directed to the injectors.
A 9% duty cycle at 580 psi means that the high pressure pump is proving enough oil pressure for the injectors to fire with only 9% of volume being directed to the injectors. A general rule of thumb is that you want the lowest duty cycle per psi possible.
As far as the fuel bowl becoming cloudy, does it appear as if oil/coolant is entering the fuel system?
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Old 10-29-2012, 05:58 PM
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Noted: I'll work on the signature.
The lope sounds like it could be a miss.
The smoke is bluish/gray, and smells like un-burnt fuel.
Yes, once in a while when accelerating, bluish/gray ( hasn't done that in a while though)
The down pipe was dry and sooty.
Intake was a little oily, not much.
Don't know the driving HPOP pressure.
No CAT or muffler.
Yes, there is oil in the valley running down the back of the block and transmission. I thought The turbo and pedestal work took care of that but it came back after about a week.
The fuel bowl remains cloudy.
No oil or fuel in the cooling system.
I do suspect fuel in the oil (need to get that tested)
MPG 15/19

Apologies for the staccato responses to your questions. I'm just trying to keep it concise.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:00 PM
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Thanks for the explanation BACKWOODSBOY.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:43 PM
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MPGs are good So there aught not be a performance issue with the fuel itself. Sounds like right now your oil leak is coming from the HPOP. There are three ports that you can see with it on the front cover and one you can't see. Of course usually the port that leaks is the one you can't see on the bottom.

In the engine valley there are three "wells" (front to the back of the engine) that will hold a liquid. Sop up the oil in the three wells and start the truck . See which we'll starts filling first. That will tell you which end of the motor is leaking. If it fills in the back first then there is still something up with the turbo and pedestal. If it fills in the front then it's the HPOP Or the IPR. Also look along each oil bank on the heads for leaks. The o-rings in the plugs do wear out.

Oil in the fuel or vise versa means bad injector o-rings. Ok. Enough from me see what you can see.

[EDIT: look into the CCV MOD. To rid the intake of future oil]

Last edited by BigFuel; 10-29-2012 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 10-29-2012, 06:59 PM
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Thanks for the help BIGFUEL.
I'll be studying the oil leek. As for the CCV mod, I had that disconnected and the intake port plugged to eliminate that as an escape rout for the oil. I re-attached it after replacing the turbo though; it didn't make any difference.
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Old 10-30-2012, 12:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monegrand View Post
Thanks for the help BIGFUEL.
I'll be studying the oil leek. As for the CCV mod, I had that disconnected and the intake port plugged to eliminate that as an escape rout for the oil. I re-attached it after replacing the turbo though; it didn't make any difference.
You plugged the vent INTO the intake, right? Not the vent coming out of the valve cover? Sounds like you did it the right way, but just want to make sure as capping off the CCV vent on the doghouse will cause pressure buildup and oil leaks.

I may have skimmed over your answer, but does the cloudy fuel in the bowl appear as if there is oil entering the fuel system?
Due to the regulated return design of our trucks, a bad injector o-ring can cause oil to enter the fuel system, some of which is returned to the tank and from there sent back to the fuel bowl.
The blue/gray smoke is also an indication of the engine burning oil. Unburnt fuel will be white/gray.
I see you have already done the injector o-rings. Was it a DIY job, or did a shop do it? I have heard rumors of a bad batch of Alliant Power o-rings going around, so you may have been unfortunate enough to end up with a defective seal to begin with.

If I was a gambling man, I would put money on an injector o-ring issue at this point.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:25 AM
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BACKWOODSBOY,
I'm thinking O-rings for the high oil consumption problem, and leaky HPOP for the external leak. As for the injector O-rings, could the internal O-rings cause the same problem? What about the lope, could this be related to the injectors as well? I did the o-rings myself with cheap ones from Rock Auto; I doubt that they were Alliant.
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Old 10-30-2012, 07:46 AM
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This is the issue that I'm seeing and it can go either way. The HPOP leaking from the lower port (the one you can't see) would lower HPOP psi and cause you to lose system oil to the ground. This loss can't be seen by the IPR because it is leaking from the IPR (the port is a perpendicular cut in the HPOP housing for the oil to get to the IPR. Be careful taking it apart as there is a rod and detent ball inside. Ford lists this piece of the HPOP as non fixable BUT IH does sell a fix it kit) and would allow the IPR to stay at a low duty cycle. A blown o-ring in the injector would cause the lope and the oil bypassing to the tank to be burned later but the IPR is sitting at a 9% duty cycle so the system isn't seeing that much of a loss to the rail pressure to notice the o-ring failure. Backwoods can be totally right with the o-ring failure but I'm going to stick to pushing you to fix the obvious first. Find and fix the leak in the valley and see if that solves at least the oil consumption issue.

I'm kinda purposely not paying attention to the blue smoke as I'm assuming that you JUST did the o-rings. If that is correct it can take a week or two to burn off all the spilled oil that went into the cylinder and exhaust when the injectors were pulled.
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