96' won't start. - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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  #1  
Old 10-28-2012, 02:00 PM
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96' won't start.

Hey guys, Big Fuel, and others,

My motor's situation has changed somewhat, that's why I'm starting a new thread. Here's the saga from the start until now.

The motor became hard to start a few months ago. It began by requiring long crank times of about 10 or 15 seconds. Then the crank times began getting longer, and longer, until it got to the point that it wouldn't start at all, it would only turn over.

At this point it would turn over, but it wouldn't start unless I placed a gasoline soaked rag over the air filter. The HPOP reservoir would drain down overnight. Then it got to a point that it would drain drown within a few hours. In my quest:

1. I've changed the oil and filter.
2. I've replaced the original IPR.
3. I've replaced the original ICP because it came apart while I was trying to disconnect it.
4. I've replaced the 15* HPOP with a newly remanufactured 17* and the 17* HPOP came with another new IPR, but that IPR is different than the original and the first replacement that bought.

None of these attempts changed anything. The truck would still turn over but not start, and the HPOP reservoir would still drain empty over a period of time, even after manually filling it through the plug in the top of the reservoir.

5. I've replaced the LPOP with a Melling.
6. I've removed the spring and ball from the quick fill valve. The ball looked flawless.
7. Using a .50 caliber chamber brush, I gently cleaned the seat by turning the brush slowly and only in one direction for only about 10 or 15 revolutions.

Fuel filter is not very old either, only months old.

Now, it seems that the reservoir is remaining full and when I'm cranking the engine the oil pressure guage bounces rapidly as if the HPOP is consuming the oil and the LPOP is replenishing it. That appears to be normal, but the truck doesn't start, nor does it even try to. It just turns over. I can place a gasoline soaked rag over the air filter and it will start right up and idle perfectly. I can let it idle forever, or drive it until it gets to operating temp, then shut it down and immediately try to start it, and it won't start. It does the same thing, just turns over and over. Place the gasoline soaked rag over the air filter, and it will start right up. Two weeks ago I drove it 174 miles pulling a 27' enclosed trailer. When I got to my destination, I shut it down and tried to start it, no-go. When I got ready to leave a couple of days later, a gasoline soaked rag started it right up.

Here's a new twist. Now, when I stop a light, or stop sign, it usually dies and won't restart. I use the gasoline soaked rag and it starts right up. Once it starts, it idles. But it doesn't want to idle when coming to a stop.

Using a Mac Tools ET9640 scanner, the idle HPOP is around 250. While cranking the engine the HPOP is about 180 at about 110 rpm. With the chip (see sig) turned up all the way and the pedal flat footed it will roll coal and run like a raped ape, showing only about 500lbs of HPOP.

The only code it shows now is P0344. CPS Bank A CKT Interrmitent. I replaced the CPS, cleared the codes and nothing changed, and the P0344 code comes back.

It is my understanding that the scanner's indication for the HPOP is low, but I don't know if the scanner uses a divider of some sort, because the scanner's screen displays this: "ICP (A/ 180" while cranking, and "ICP (A/ 250" when idling. It looks as if there is a character or two being cutoff due to the small size of the display.

But do you folks think that I need a fuel pump? It seems that I have:

1. Compression
2. High pressure oil
3. Fuel?, maybe not?

Is it possible for these mechanical fuel pumps to be too tired to make enough fuel pressure/volume to start the engine, or keep it running after coming to a stop, but be strong enough to keep it idling right after start up?

One last thing, unplugging the ICP doesn't allow it to start either. With the ICP unplugged, with the scanner hooked up, the ICP pressure is zero.

I get these readings while the engine is warmed up and idling:

ICP (Mp 4.00
ICP (V) 0.94
ICP (A/ 190

This is how the fields and data are actually displayed on the scanner. The 1st one and the third one may be truncated on the display. The "ICP (A/" is not a typo. That is how it appears. The same for the others.

What do you guys think?

Last edited by Mollieandgil; 10-28-2012 at 04:20 PM.
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  #2  
Old 10-29-2012, 10:46 AM
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White smoke while cranking? What's the temp outside? All under hood fuses good? What is fuel pressure at crank/idle/driving/WOT? Where did the HPOP come from? Glow plug relay working normally?

HPOP needs to be at 500-700 psi idling and in the 1000's-2000's running down the road. Does your scanner show IPR duty cycle?

The PCM will not allow an engine to start unless it sees:

7 volts at the Battery
100 rpm's at the CPS
500 psi at the ICP
and a fuel pulse width of 1 ms - 6 ms

I believe your current problem is either the IPR not doing it's job or a faulty HPOP. You using a gasoline soaked rag is hiding the HPOP's weakness and circumventing the start up system by allowing the cylinder to burn something so that the HPOP will spin faster to make the requested HPOP psi to let the PCM say "yes it's time to run" (sorry, long winded).You are sure the LPOP is doing it's job? See the enclosed picture. this is a crack in my front cover that would not allow my LPOP to move adequate oil volume unless the engine was above 1000 rpm's.



Other side (internal)


Last edited by BigFuel; 10-29-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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  #3  
Old 10-31-2012, 02:28 PM
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Hey BF,

The LPOP and the timing cover are in prestine condition. The valley is now full of diesel fuel, however, I replaced every rubber hose with new ones the first time that I removed the fuel filter canister. The last time of many times that I have rescently had the fuel filter canister off there was a lot of diesel fuel covering the valley that wasn't there before. So, I replaced all of the rubber fuel lines again. That was only last week. Today I went out to the truck to replace the fuel filter, just for the heck of it, hell, I'd already replaced everything else. Anyway, the valley is covered in diesel fuel again.

I'm confident that the hoses aren't leaking. I'm thinking it's the fuel pump. I may not get to turn wrenches until tomorrow, but I'll let you know.
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Old 10-31-2012, 02:42 PM
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Yeah, the fuel pump has a weep hole on it but usually there is a total failure of the Fuel Pump and it doesn't survive long enough for the bearing to fail. Just be careful when removing the FP as sometimes the drive plunger wants to fall out the bottom into the block. Check your Banjo fitting too.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:48 PM
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Will do, thanks for the advice. I picked up a fuel pump yesterday. It's just too darned cold to do it. Maybe I'll get it tomorrow and then post results.

Hey BF, thanks for all of the advice and stayin' after these problems with me.
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Old 10-31-2012, 04:52 PM
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No worries bud, I'm just surprised that I'm the only one here.
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:11 PM
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Ok, here's the latest.

I removed the fuel pump, and it came out in two pieces. The bottom of it stayed in the block.

I got lucky, and successfully pushed down the piece of housing that remained in the block, exposing the remaining piece of plunger that remained in the block. I grabbed the piece of the plunger that remained with vice-grips and pulled the two pieces out.

I replaced the fuel pump.

Well, the truck wouldn't start without the gasoline. And the same old thing, shut it off, and it wouldn't restart.

At this point I had the 17* hpop with the replacement ipr in it. I drove it down the road, and it would roll coal, but set the Check Engine Light. It would do that anytime I would roll coal with the original 15* hpop.

Therefore, I just now finished replacing the IPR with the one that came with the 17* pump. It's the IPR that isn't open on the end like the oem one is. It's not the edge filter, but instead it's just solid steel on the end, with the cross holes in it. I even cleaned the FPR screen, just for the heck of it.

This IPR will roll coal and it won't set the Check Engine light, and it idles smoother with this IPR too.

Again, this truck runs flawlessly, great in fact. But it just won't start without a fuel source in the intake, such as a gasoline soaked rag or ether. As I said before, I drove it to Tenn and back, 350 mile round trip without issue, except starting of course. I wouldn't hesitate to drive this truck to California as long as I had some gasoline and a rag so I could start it whenever I shut it off.

I've given my best effort. But I'm out of ideas. I love this truck. I've owned it since 1998, but I'm about to just wave the white flag and surrender. I'm at my wit's end on this one. My wife wants me to just buy a new one. I've got my eye on an 08' 450 Lariat 6.4L. If I can't get it fix this week, I'm just going to bite the bullet and buy the 08'.

Last edited by Mollieandgil; 11-04-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 02:08 PM
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I just let it idle for about 15 minutes. I shut it off and tried to restart it and the oil pressure guage wouldn't move. WTF!

I've installed:

new o-rings on the oem IPR
a new Melling lpop
a remanufactured 17* hpop
two new IPR's
a new fuel pump
a new hpop-timing cover gasket
a new hpop reservoir-timing gasket
a new fuel filter
a new IPR electric pigtail today
a new CPS because it showed a code, that is still there
and cleaned the screen.

Nothing changes. It will not start and there is no smoke from the exhaust at all while cranking the engine.

Any other suggestions? Could the remanufacture hpop be bad and still run great once the engine starts?
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  #9  
Old 11-05-2012, 08:49 AM
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Sorry, I don't get on here much on the weekends. Did I send you my Ford no start flowchart? If not PM me an email address and I'll send it right over.This I baffling me too. . .
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