Spartan tuned truck with concerns about tuner engine timing - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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  #1  
Old 10-20-2013, 10:09 PM
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Spartan tuned truck with concerns about tuner engine timing

I posted this over on the Spartan forums but wanted to hit a different group of people to get the best information possible. I'm just looking for everyones honest opinion. Not here to bash anyones product. Ok maybe bash Blackwater engines but I'll get to that in a sec. So what got me thinking about this was when I purchased a set of ported 6.4L heads with a fire ring installed and a few other mods from Powerstrokehelp.com. Bill was awesome to talk to. He asked about my tuning and I told him I run Spartan. He went on to explain how he gets H&S tuned trucks in the most with blown head gaskets "even with studs" cracked heads around glow plugs and exhaust valves, burnt pistons, melted exhaust valves and so on. Spartan would be the next one he's seeing trucks with issues but not as bad as H&S. He said H&S and Spartan are using way to much timing. He recommended KEM. He said they make just about the same power but with less timing which will help the engine hold together much longer. He said he isn't seeing KEM tuned trucks come into his shop with issues like the other trucks using other tuning. If he sold the KEM tuner I would have thought maybe he's feeding me a line of crap but he doesn't sell it. I have no idea either way. My mechanic buddy at my local trusted shop said it's entirely possible and he's read it's the case online but he's not sure 100%. So I'm here to discuss the idea. Now let me say. I'm replacing my cylinder heads with ones with a fire ring installed because I had a new engine with head studs installed blow a head gasket. We think the manufacturer "Blackwater engines" screwed up the head gasket some how when they were installing the heads since it was having puking issues from the start of installing their engine but it's entirely possible the engine was fine and within a 1000 miles I had somehow blown the head gasket. Started having excessive pressure build up in the cooling system. I run the Spartan 310 tune as my daily driver. So the gasket was some how screwed up by Blackwater or somehow I blew the gasket even with ARP head studs installed. So it gets me thinking about this timing thing that honestly I'm not an expert on by any means. I love the power my truck makes but I'm worried about this engine I'm now having rebuilt locally "which I should have done the first time". So what are your thoughts on this timing thing? I CAN NOT afford to have my cab up again. If so the trucks gonna be parked. I'm broke because I'm doing additional upgrades like duel fueler K16 pumps, the new heads, custom pistons, new cam, bullet proof diesel oil cooler. No money for bigger injectors and the stock set I have now has less than 1000 miles on them anyway. They are basically new. So I'm just worried now about my tuning could destroy my engine. I'm just worrying but need some input here.

I am also listing all the mods on my truck below.

2009 Ford F-250 with a rebuilt 6.4L Diesel engine
4x4 3.73 gears 35" BF Goodrich All Terrains
BDS Suspension 546H 4" Lift Kit
ProComp Traction/ Latter Bars
Amsoil lubricants in everything
Amsoil Remote Oil Bypass Unit
Bullet Proof Diesel Oil Cooler System
Sinister Coolant Filter
ARP Head Studs
Fluidampr Damper Harmonic Balancer
River City Diesel Exhaust Manifolds
River City Diesel Colt Cams Stage 1 Camshaft 4000 RPM .405" lift 182/196 duration
River City Diesel Aluminum Oil Pan
BiggDogg Diesel/ Powerstrokehelp.com ported cylinder heads with stainless steel O rings installed on the heads, bronze valve guides & High Rev/ High Pressure valve springs
Midwest Diesel Dual Fueler twin K-16 fuel pump kit
Fass Titanium 150 GPH Lift Pump
Elite Ported Fuel Rails
Elite Z-Max Ported Intake Manifold
Elite CCV+ Crankcase Evac System
Batmowheels in small & large turbos
ATS Five Star Torque Converter
ATS Billet Flex Plate
ATS High Capacity Trans Pan
Spartan Tuner 310 EL Tune
MBRP exhaust 4" from turbos back, DPF Delete no cat
Banks Techni Intercooler
S&B Cold Air Intake
BD Turbo guard Blow Off valve
Street Diesel Performance 3" Intercooler Pipe & Intake Elbow
Street Diesel Performance EGR delete w/ External Waste Gate & EGR coolers removed
Snow Performance MPG Max Water/ Methanol injection running two 625ml/min & one 175ml/min injectors
DieselSite Complete 6.4L Boot Set
Turbo Blankets

Last edited by Delta Kilo; 10-20-2013 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:54 AM
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I would venture that most deleted 6.4's on the road are running H&S... followed by Spartan... then followed by boutique tuners using the SCT platform.

so it doesn't surprise me that most blown head gaskets he sees are on H&S trucks... followed by Spartan...

and since there are like eight guys out there running KEM tuning, he hasn't seen a truck running KEM with a blown gasket.
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:59 AM
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All I could do was lol at Bills comments.. Did he talk you into the dual fuelers and batmowheels?

Last edited by WoodBoy; 10-21-2013 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 10-21-2013, 05:49 AM
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timing should not have any proportion to how long you hold it wide open if you want a 700-800 horse motor to last for 100,000 miles then keep dreaming, if you run your truck hard and run a 310 tune all of the time then you got to expect things to break. Drive it like a truck and not the drag car you are towing on the back. Their are tons of 6.4l out there running spartan and h&s thats why he will see them all the time because their are a ton out there. and the ones he tends to see i bet is when you get a 16 year old kid with dads truck thinking holding it WOT and alot of black smoke wiill get the cute girl riding shotgun.... sometimes maybe but that is not the rest of us the shell out 40-50k for a truck to run into the ground.

Now timing on a properly tuned truck like h&s or spartan on a 310 tune should be agressive and it is meant to be to run it like so to make that amount of power. If you think that the timing is an issue ( i dont ) then go to like a 250 or 2750 tune, that should have a tamer timing curve associated with your wot conditions. If you dont want to take any risk associated with a 6.4l diesel then put the 210 tune on it and have the safe limits on it. But if you like the power and the assocaited factor then dont stomp on it every time you drive it. (not saying you are, just in general) when you start putting 700hp to the ground something has to be the weak point and if everyting is bulletproof then your engine is going to be the weak point. You dont see many guys making 750-850hp daily driving these trucks ( their are a few) but they also have the money to play.
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:17 PM
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I know this was stated but the second I read h&s then spartan then kem in problem order I laughed. That's the sane order they are in popularity. That bill guy someone knows his stuff but is lacking in the common sense area
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Old 10-21-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drunk on diesel View Post
I would venture that most deleted 6.4's on the road are running H&S... followed by Spartan... then followed by boutique tuners using the SCT platform.

so it doesn't surprise me that most blown head gaskets he sees are on H&S trucks... followed by Spartan...

and since there are like eight guys out there running KEM tuning, he hasn't seen a truck running KEM with a blown gasket.
Bam!
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Old 11-07-2013, 07:32 PM
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i see you listed you were spraying water meth as well.
adding meth accelerates combustion by igniting before the diesel is injected, the all ready established flame front sets off the fuel quicker. normaly there is a few ms delay from point of injection to creation of a flame front, but you are now eliminating that delay.
this is part of why it works so well for adding mpg, the fast flame front generates huge cyl pressure at tdc. to much timing creates the cyl pressure before tdc while the piston is still going up.
the higher the % of meth to h20, the easier it is to light off. 50/50 is about the highest " safe " bet with stock timing. more aggressive timing curves should start lower and work there way up. besides the high % of water creates more steam engine effect, higher low rpm torque, and faster turbo spool up as long as you dont quench the fire. high % of water also prevents back fire's in the intake at high boost. high boost = high intake air temp, ive seen trucks register 600+ degrees AFTER the intercooler. that high of temp is going to pretty much instantly turn both the water and the meth into vapor where they will light the easiest. i see a banks intercooler on your list, so hopefully your air temps arnt getting that high. i know a guy who kept poping intercooler boots on his truck, thought it was because the meth was making the boost # go up, but realy it was backfireing/lighting in his intake, it finally dawned on him when it blew chunks out of the plastic intake gasket.
any ways, i got side tracked. if you are worried that you might be running on the raged edge with timing, then id start by working up to it. every truck is going to react different, if your tuneing it on the dyno and the meth isnt adding any hp, then you are probably causing it to be over advanced. a 50/50 mix with as big of nozels as you have listed should be worth an easy 50-75hp when dialed in right.
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