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bad tuner ?????

5K views 27 replies 6 participants last post by  papafordtruck 
#1 ·
hello , papafordtruck here , just joined , bought an 08 6.4 in august , k for about 6 weeks then tied to run away with me , twice , took it In , 3 new injectors 1,5,&7 1500.00 2 weeks later running bad again took it in , 3 new injectors 1,2,&5 2200.00 , it has egr and pdf delete, banks air intake 4'' exhaust and a sct livewire tuner , both shops told me they thought the tuner was holding the injectors open for some reason , cant afford much more of this, any SUGGESTIONS , HELP !
 
#3 ·
it's an sct livewire and I believe it is a preloaded tune , I really don't know much about it , I just finished completely overhauling the 5.4 in my other truck , and have worked on gas engines for many many years but this is my first diesel , and it's kind of foreign to me .
 
#5 ·
the only code it ever came up was a misfire on cylinder #1 , I don't remember what the actual code was but that was the only one , the last shop reset everything back to ford factory specs and then reinstalled the tune and it is running fine at the moment , the way I understand it you have to have the tune to fool the computer into thinking that the egr and pfd is still installed , the truck would smoke white on a cold start and after about 3 or 4 minutes it would start hammering like crazy , if I shut it off for about 30 seconds and restart it , the noise was gone and the smoke would finally clear up , then it would run fine all day except when the torque converter would lock up , it would act like it had a miss , to the point the hood would shake if you pushed it just a little to pick up speed , didn't notice the miss in lower gears when not under a load like it is in high gear,
 
#7 ·
First thing is first... It tried to run away on you? How was the oil level when this happened? Did your shop check turbos? How much blow by? Is it running better after injectors?


I doubt its your tuner, how are the telling the injectors are bad? Any white smoke that smells like fuel? Whats the maintenance history?

Something tells me your shop doesn't know diddly about a 6.4 bud... Generally if all of the injectors are bad the hpfp is done for too. Any rust in the system? What is the rail pressure at wot? Does rail pressure surge while driving?
 
#8 ·
when you hook up the tuner it will ask you if it is egr delete and dpf delete and yes when it ran away it was way overfull in the crankcase , I went out this afternoon and started it for the first time today , it was in the 50's here today, and just let it idle , after about a minute it started with the white smoke and yes it smelled like diesel , about 3 or 4 minutes later I felt a cylinder miss a couple of times , so I just put it in gear and drove off , 500 ft. later the smoke cleared up no miss , ran fine all evening , purrs right along on the highway , couldn't ask for a smoother running truck , if you go out in the morning and just start it and drive away , no problems , if you let it idle it does the smoking and missing , i'm starting to think about dynamite ,
 
#9 ·
What does your shop say about it? Does the truck hold fuel rail pressure? The reason I ask is that its possible that 1: you had water in the system and it took out the hpfp and it raped the injectors. then 2: Injectors hang open and toast a piston, this can cause the white smoke you see along with a hung injector. 3: you have another issue along with injectors and hpfp that is causing it...
 
#10 ·
but if it toasted a piston , the smoke wouldn't go away , would it ? I noticed a couple days ago that when I started it stone cold and been setting overnight ,and the smoke started coming out , if I held it up at a fast idle the smoke would kind of puff out of the tailpipe instead of a steady flow wen it was idling ,
 
#12 ·
^^^^^^^^

My overall point is I don't think your shop knows what they are doing... With an IDS and an understanding of the 6.4 they should be able to figure out your problem. If you are overfull on oil that does point to a bad injector and possibly worse. The thing about 6.4s is they hide major failures very well until they take the motor completely. Ask Toren... He owns a shop specializing in powerstrokes and just melted a piston. After shutting down and restarting you really didn't have much clue that there was a problem aside form the ccv showing high blow by...
 
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#13 ·
I tried again this morning , just started and drove off , everything was fine ran great and never missed a beat , it only acts up when it's sat and totally cooled off and you let it idle ,like a cold start problem or something of that nature , where do you think I need to go from here , you fellas know more about diesels than I do that's for sure , any diesel shops in central Illinois that anyone would recommend or any where else for that matter, I can drive it or haul it wherever I need too I would just like to get it fixed so that I can rely on it , think I'll name it the money pit ! I sure appreciate your help
 
#14 ·
Again, you need to watch your rail pressure on startup. I honestly think your hpfp is the root of the problem and your shop misdiagnosed the truck.

Without the truck in front of me I can't verify this, but you can with the livewire. Just bring up the FRP(Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor) pid and watch the psi during startup, at idle, then while cruising at a steady speed on a level road. What you are looking for if its happening at idle is for frp to jump around. These trucks idle at roughly 5000psi and it may jump from 5000-5300psi depending on the temp but it should hold steady. If you see it drop and bounce around then jump high you have fuel issues. It could be as simple as the frp sensor is sending a false reading and the hpfp is trying to keep pressure up or more than likely considering your injectors are trashed the hpfp is going bad.


Remember diesel fuel is an oil, its the lubrication for both the hpfp and injectors. You can tell a shop doesn't work on 6.4s very often when they replace injectors and don't do the black cap test on the fuel from the rails to check for rust, metal, and or water. And I have a feeling this is exactly what your shop didn't do. Nor did they hook up a scanner and watch frp.


On the drive once warmed up again rail pressure should increase with throttle but never surge or jump around. While holding rpm steady it should hold pressure.




Trouble shooting a 6.4 is actually pretty simple. Its understanding what the truck is (or isn't) telling you when you find a given symptom that most shops don't know. Let us know what you find, if you find what I think you will its time to go back to your shop and ask them wtf... It is partially their fault that your cab is going up a third time when a proper diag would have made it one and done.

To replace the hpfp means you are going to be getting another set of injectors, all of the hp fuel lines replaced, new hpfp, and a complete flush of EVERYTHING ELSE. The cost is usually in the realm of $6000. If this is the case your shop should be eating part of this cost... A big part of the cost.


Also check for excessive blow by. Pull your oil fill cap and set it in the hole, if it stays put you don't have piston damage or loss of compression.
 
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#16 ·
Again, let us know what you find. This may very well be something that you need to go back to your shop as a come back and make them front some of the bill.


But if it is the case make sure they replace the hp system and flush the low pressure system otherwise you will be chasing this for a long time.
 
#17 ·
well finally had a chance to check out the fuel rail pressure and at start up and at idle the tuner says its got about 34.7 to about 35.7 but it holds steadily in that range and doesn't jump way up and down, same way on the drive , of course numbers are higher but don't jump around , at 70 mph level road it holds high 70's or low 80's , only trouble I'm having now is in the morning, if I let it sit and idle , after about 1 to 1.5 minutes of running it suddenly starts to smoke then starts a random miss and just keeps getting worse until I get in and run down the road and it takes a while to get It cleaned out but will finally clear up and run great , if I just go out and start it and take off it runs fine , just a little smoke when I start it and its fine , runs great all day , do those numbers sound right ?
 
#18 ·
WHO HERE CALLED MY NAME?!?!?


I would agree with Crazy at this point. There is a problem that has not been diagnosed at this time. EVERYTHING for a 6.4's fuel system lies under covers and IN the actual engine. This means if a line, HPFP, injector, or fitting leaks it dump fuel into the crank case. This will vary quickly become as you have experienced a runaway condition. If the oil is diluted with fuel to a certain point it will now start burning off the cylinder walls when the engine is running. It also takes the oil with it. This will cause smoke as well as a very short life for the motor. I would be trying to find a shop that know a little more about what they are doing.

The fuel pressure numbers you put up do not sound right at all, unless the measurement on the scan tool is in kpsi. If that's the case there's you problem. There is NO way you truck should be idling at 35,000 psi of fuel pressure. My guess is that you are reading something either wrong or there really is a regulator or sensor issue. Usually these both will generate codes. I.E. "Fuel Rail pressure too high outside normal operating parameters". As far as the smoke is concerned, what does it smell like? Wondering if all of the diesel fuel in the oil cause a turbo seal to take a chit....
 
#21 ·
well i'm finally back fellows , and I used my scan tool on the truck to see what the hpfp was doing instead of using the tuner and the readings made more sense . I'm not near the real figures right now but I do remember that at idle it was always above 5000 and on the drive cycle at times it got up to 18000 , I don't know if that is normal or not , but it was pretty steady , it did constantly fluctuate but not drastically , it stayed pretty steady according to where you were at with load and throttle position , in trying different things to narrow this down I have discovered that if I plug it in at night , I can start it the next morning and not have any problems at all no smoke or anything and I can start it cold and let it idle forever and no problem s at all but if it's not plugged in , it will idle for about 1 minute and starts smoking and about 30 seconds later it will start an intermittent miss that just keeps getting worse , I feel like we are getting closer to figuring this out and I sure appreciate the help and suggestions , I wouldn't be this far if it had not been for your help , i'm still open for suggestions , and if i'm off base on something please don't hesitate to tell me so , and thanks again !
 
#24 ·
Just based on this info above, it almost sounds like it is low on compression on one cylinder. This would explain why it starts good when its warmed by the block heater as the fuel continues to ignite as its already heated. The cold start that progressively gets worse almost sounds like when the GP's shut off it looses that cylinder and starts to wash it down. This is just basing it off the info you have give thus far. I would use the scan tool when the miss is occurring and preform the "Injector Kill" test. You will be able to shut each injector OFF while the truck is running one by one and see which one effect the smoking. If the smoking stops on one cylinder then there's your culprit. It may take a couple of seconds on running with the cylinder off to see a difference in smoke as the left over needs to be purged out.

I can tell you from recent experience that a 6.4 with a dead hole will almost feel normal if not smoking. When I melted cyl3 down it damn near felt like a normal 6.4 driving it to the trailer and back. Only the puffing of the oil cap and blow by from the CCV dump told me otherwise. Anyway....I would preform the cylinder kill test first and see if you can narrow it down that way. It is still entirely possible that there is an injector hanging open intermittently.
 
#26 ·
well I have not done the injector kill test but I know it's got some problems with at least one cyl. because it is blowing out crankcase pressure out the oil filler cap , I could really tell when I put my 16ft. empty trailer behind it , still had plenty of power but you could tell something wasn't right can I put a scope down thru the glow plug hole and look at each cyl. or is that not doable ?
 
#28 ·
ok well that's what i'll do and go from there , does the cab have to come off to get this motor out or is there a way to get it out without cab removal , if it doe have to come off whats the best way ,I don't have a lift but I do have access to a fork lift would that work ?
 
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