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Educating Fellow Members On What Things Are Like From A Tech's Perspective

8K views 79 replies 42 participants last post by  sixliterleader 
#1 ·
Let me first start off by requesting the moderator to move this post to the appropriate forum if needed. I am posting here because it is the forum I frequent the most. I would also like to begin by letting all fellow members understand the purpose of this post. Hopefully, after reading this, MOST of you will get a better understanding of what it's like being a tech, wrenching on these animals.

From the time that I have joined this forum, as well as many other forums, I have tried to help as many fellow members as possible, regarding questions about their truck, be it technical or otherwise. I get a personal satisfaction out of being able to help anyone save TIME and MONEY because I work on these things myself, and can very clearly understand how easily anyone can end up "over-repairing" something when they are not in the know. That being said, all I ask for, is for all of you "out there" to understand that most of us working on these vehicles, really don't make a lot of money when the work being carried out is a warranty repair. As most of you are probably already aware, these engines (the 6.0L) have been pretty troublesome on A LOT of fronts since it's introduction in 2003. The high cost of the warranty claims to Ford Motor Company these engines have caused, is probably no secret to most of you by now, that it has caused the demise of the "relationship" between Ford and Navistar (the manufacturer/supplier of the 6.0L/VT365), effective December 31st/2009.

Those of you who visit this forum asking questions for diagnostic assistance on any particular subject matter, please keep a few things in mind before using the name "stealership" in your posts. Most of the techs on these forums work for "stealerships". That's where they get their information from, to share with YOU. While I will be the first person to agree that getting your ride repaired at the dealer vs. an independent garage can be quite pricey, there are many things you need to consider. #1 is that overhead operating costs are VERY high compared to independent garages. There are manufacturer specific diagnostic tools that can/will access information that more generic scan tools won't, which adds more time to the diagnostic process (and higher LABOUR HOURS CHARGED) by the independent. That being said, a good example of this being illustrated is one case I had, where an independent garage replaced ALL EIGHT injectors (at the customer's expense) only to have the problem NOT FIXED. The vehicle was brought to me afterwards, when I quickly determined it only needed a FICM. The "garage" paid the bill for the diag and replace, only to jack up the bill another 15% to the customer!!!

So, to clarify what is considered a "money maker" type job to a mechanic, let us understand how a mechanic is paid. I am sure most of you are aware that we are paid what is called "flat rate". This means we are paid by the job, NOT BY THE HOUR. So if a particular job is set to pay 2 hours, it pays 2 hours regardless of whether it takes 10 minutes to carry out, or FOUR hours to carry out. Retail brake jobs, maintenances, flushes (be it coolant transmisson, or power steering or brake fluids) are the types of jobs that are profitable for the servicing tech. These are typically considered "low skill" type jobs. Engine work, diagnostic type work (be that "Check Engine", ABS, flashing indicators, etc.), transmission repairs are typically not too profitable to the servicing tech, let alone 6.0L/6.4L diesel diagnostic. For this reason, there are very few who "specialize", and hence the shortage. In MOST cases, warranty repairs are jobs that result in a LOSS to the servicing tech, depending on how efficient/inefficient he is. This situation is not limited to FoMoCo techs either. Unfortunately, this type of pay system rewards those who "repair" vehicles the QUICKEST, as opposed to taking the proper amount of time needed to ensure a quality repair. Sad but true, and for this reason there are a lot of what we call "hacks" out there. Lastly, understand that for every $100 you pay to the dealer, the servicing tech gets only $25 of that.

One final note to those of you who bring their vehicle to the dealer "only for warranty repairs", keep one thing in mind. If a major component (engine/transmission) fails on you, and you are a "regular" paying customer that has had all your maintenance kept up to date at recommended mileages, YOU will be the ones looked after, if/when the warranty expires. This means if you are beyond your 3/36 and your engine or transmission is toasted, you will be the ones that are offered what is called a "goodwill" type repair which means the cost of the repair will be split 3 ways: the manufacturer, the dealer and you. If however, you fall under the category that warranty repairs are the only occasions for your visits, you will be the ones "pushed to the back of the bus" so to speak. This means if your vehicle sustains a major component failure after your warranty expired like the situation mentioned above, you will be on your own for the repair.

I now end this post with a few questions. Why is it that we don't question being charged $200 for having someone install our toilet, but when quoted $100 to diagnose a complex driveability problem with our vehicles, we scream "bloody murder"?
 
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#2 ·
There are some very good points in there and I for one consider myself a more educated person for having read this!
 
#4 ·
That was the intended purpose of this post:thumb:
 
#5 ·
I agree. I work at an International/Peterbilt Dealership. We work on Caterpillar, Cummins, and International engines. We have many customers who whine and complain about what we charge as opposed to maw and paw shops, but the up side is we are a full service dealer and our techs have the skills to properly diagnose and repair the truck properly.
 
#6 ·
Very well written and I agree with you, I go to the dealership to get most of the work I done on my truck that Im not able to do on my own, I know one of the diesel techs very well there as long as the service manager and they are great guys and always help me out and give me good deals, Ive hung around and heard about how much they hate warranty repairs and stuff so I appreciate the work you guys do, and thank you and all the other techs for all the help
 
#10 ·
And it is THIS attitude that keeps techs like myself motivated to going into work every day, putting a concerted effort into ensuring the vehicle is leaves my bay achieving absolutely NOTHING, other than a customer that is completely satisfied with the repair (something VERY difficult to achieve with 6.0L owners).

Sadly, there are very few like you out there.
 
#7 ·
I hear where youre coming from. I dont like it when I see the term "stealership". Matter of fact, I saw it in a new thread earlier today. I thought to myself,"this fella prolly wont get any help". I personally wanna thank you, and all the other techs here who offer up their personal UNPAID time to help us out. Youre not obligated to do it, but you still do. Thank You.
 
#12 ·
I feel the same way as you do. The techs here could be spending time with their families, drinking beer, working on their own trucks, etc but they take time out of their lives, come on here and give FREE, professional advice and don't expect anything in return but maybe a thank you. I think that's very awesome of them :nod:
 
#8 ·
Dirk needs to see this. And all the other guys.

Very well said sir. Glad someone put that important info into perspective for the people that don't get it.
 
#13 ·
I know what you mean. That's why I refused to work for a dealership. I had some great offers but I'm not interested in taking a pay cut everytime a warranty job comes in. Plus you guys have the politics and BS involved with every large company and that's another thing I can't stand....

The only reason I even considered the dealership was for the benefits but I was lucky enough to find a small shop that offered those things so it was a no brainer for me.
 
#14 ·
Thank you , Sir. Very nice and informative post, I'm glad you're here to help and share your knowledge/expertise.

With that being said, I can assure you people squeal when I charge them 200. for installing their toilet, so I feel your pain. :hehe:

Thanks again,
Mike
 
#15 ·
Thanks for the post, I go to the dealer for all of my work. I am a busy person so I even get my oil changed and fuel filters done at my dealer. I drive over 100k a year so that = alot onf filters a year. I am always treated with respect by the techs and service writers.
 
#16 ·
Thank You very much for this post. I actually just joined this Forum tonight. I have worked on SuperDuty's for going on 4 years now. The 6.0 has been my baby. It came out shortly before I started working on them. But anywho, I hate when people want to badmouth the dealerships left and right. Like you said, a lot of times we lose our asses on warranty. Try to pull an engine out of an econoline because it has fuel in the coolant and you get 13 hours for the entire job.:rofl: The guy I work with in the Truck shop is a senior master and has been with the dealer ship for over 25 years. He works on all the 6.4 and I work on all the ambulances/econolines that come in and I think thats a fair trade :dunno: I wanted to join this forum to try to share some of my knowledge with you guys for free and I appreciate that you guys now know a little about what the Technicians have to deal with.
 
#18 ·
Econoline AMBULANCES!!! Oh God!!! Those have got to be the WORSE abortions on wheels I have EVER seen in my carrer. I haven't actually wrenched on one YET. Just a regular E-Series alone is horrible enough as it is, let alone aftermarket junk and dual alternators and plumbing for rear heat/A-C.
 
#17 ·
Good points made, and well written. I usually go to the DEALERSHIP when its something I have no clue on how to fix. Like most, I dont like the price you pay at a dealership, but I'd rather have it done right than me just throwing parts at a problem.

The techs that are on this forum deserve our respect, and thanks.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Well said!! I work at an independent, and a great one too, our costs are also pretty high, we need the tools to service everymake and model going down the road. Independents may not see the same vehicles everyday, but if you find a good shop they will be able to repair your car just as good as a dealer. Many of the indepentent techs come from the dealers anyway cause they are sick of dealing with warranty work. Its expensive, we have 3 generic scanners, an ids, tech 2, drb3 each at at least 5 grand a pop. People need to learn our industry is very expensive to be in. How many other careers require continouse training? How many other careers require tens of thousands of dollors in tools just to get the job done? I inherited probly sixty grand in tools from my dad and ive invested at least 20 grand more and still dont have everything needed. Its an expensive job. The worst part is when the hack shop down the street undercharges and the quality independents and dealerships look like crooks for charging what they are worth. Today we had a customer come in the shop and complained about paying $26.85 for an oil change. They said jiffy lube does it cheaper. Jiffy lube doesnt have the experience ase certified techs, and master certified techs. It just makes me sick. Thank you very much m-chan68 for posting this!!!!!!
 
#28 ·
The length of this post very clearly indicates that you understand that I also included SOME NON-dealership shops as those deserving of more respect. It is mind boggling how many there are out there (including University educated type professionals that drive $80,000 vehicles), that don't realize what the expense is to each one of us personally isn't it? I can't count how many times I have seen eyes bulging when I describe how much I've paid in tools personally, to be in this "profession". It seems like everyone thinks that our tools are "supplied" by the shop we work for. The scary part is, I don't even own that big expensive $9,000 Snap-On toolbox!

Also, how many times have we posted instructions on how to do specific repairs on this, and probably many other forums, only to have the asker change his mind, bite the bullet and pay for the repair? That by itself, should very clearly indicate the difficulty level of what the job involve(s).

How many of you out there, have gotten tired of hearing "I WANT IT FIXED, AND I DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR IT"?
 
#20 ·
Yea, those ambulances are rediculous. I have pulled 5 engines so far, and am actually in the process of doing an oil cooler on one. They are all dual alternator and have rear heat, those heater hoses for rear heat are just crazy, i dont even think ford knows how they are supposed to fit in there, it always looks like a mess, even when its right. And all the Ambulance controls they mount on the doghouse, makes me wanna cut myself lol. But it does give you pride when you can take 2 huge piles of parts and make an ambulance back out of it.
 
#21 ·
I like what you said.
 
#22 ·
very good post man, it should be a sticky....and i love my 6.0!!!
 
#23 ·
:clap::clap::clap: well said
I try to do as much as I can on my own vehicle, just because I love to tinker and figure out as much as I can with how things work, but to this point everything else has been through the dealer. :icon_ford:
 
#24 ·
Good post. I find the word "stealership" to be dis-respectful. There is a reason the dealership is expensive. It's because the parts are the correct parts that go on the vehicle and the people that are working on the vehicle are Certified to work on them. I have an example: Average Joe needs brake pads for his truck. Doesn't feel like paying $100 for motorcraft pads at the dealer and buys pads at Kragen for $35. He installs them himself. He just replaced the pads and that was it. Didn't turn the rotors or see if they were in spec. Few weeks go buy and stopping is terrible. Turns out that the $35 Kragen pads weren't good quality and ruined the rotors and calipers. Now he takes it to the dealer to get repaired correctly and it's gonna be expensive but at least it's done right.
 
#26 ·
This also hurts our industry, This is what some ignorant guy wrote on another forum im on, I just cant wait until he has a real problem!!!


QUOTE:The check engine light is on I take it to autozone 2 miles from me. They give me a good place to start. Most times the code is pointing to what has failed. I just took the Malibu there Friday. Bad knock sensor, looked it up in book found it. The connection was broken off. It cost $25 for it, done. There are plenty of people that need repair garages. I just don't happen to be one. QUOTE:
 
#32 ·
It's mind boggling how so many people are unable to differentiate between a licensed, certified tech that works for a dealer (or REPUTABLE shop) that charges $100 for a diagnostic fee, from those guys that work at Auto Zone with their cheesy $40 code reader that only displays the generic OBDII Pxxxx code isn't it? There IS a difference between IDS/Tech 2/DRBIII and a code READER.

I would LOVE to hear what one of those guys at Auto Zone would tell any unsuspecting 6.0L owner that doesn't want to pay for a diag, what's wrong with his ride when it's blowing black/white/blue smoke and his "Check Engine" light is on.

Case in point, I had a gas station shop send an '03 high mileage truck to my shop after they replaced ALL EIGHT glow plugs for a hard cold start (which it didn't need), and all it needed was a reflash which WOULD'VE only cost the customer $100.
 
#27 ·
I want to say thanks to all the techs on the org for what they do for us.
 
#31 ·
There are people at the dealer that screw up. Sometimes it's something that is funny like mistaking the oil dipstick tube for the tranny tube. But sometimes there's the things that piss you off like a transmission being rebuilt wrong and they won't look into it because of the past tranny problems and keep putting it off untill the tranny breaks. The thing is if they would road test the vehicle after the repair they will probably fix the "new" problem before the customer picks up the vehicle but they road test it and figured since it made it back its ready to go. And another thing is when the customer ask for them to look at something and they don't. That causes you to bring the vehicle back the next day thus one more day without your truck.
 
#34 ·
Dealerships and independents are not always right, everybody makes mistakes, i know i do. But i try to make it right, and most shops will. As far as your situation i dont blame you for being bmad, NOT ALL DEALERSHIPS/INDEPENDENTS are created equal.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Very good post! Im about to take my truck in for a leak and I'll definetly take everything you said into cosideration. I'd much rather have a tech at a dealership, who is trained and qualified to work on my truck, than have a regular ole joe who does any kind of work and specializes in none work on it. Thanks for all the great advise and hard work guys!
 
#41 ·
Independents are not just regular ole joes.
 
#40 ·
when i was wanting to have my injectors checked out at the independent service station, they have a scanner that ford used and cost around 10k for. thats really expensive. but it takes a trained person to operate it. like some of the posters here in this thread, i also go to the dealer/shop to have work done that i cant/dont want to do. it hurts the check book but its done right (hopefully) i just had my engine rebuilt two weeks ago due to the result of my bad head gasket job and po overheat.

anyway thank all you techs that extend your knowledge on this forum to help us non techs for problems that range from small to big.

keep up the good work. :thumb:
 
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