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Educating Fellow Members On What Things Are Like From A Tech's Perspective

8K views 79 replies 42 participants last post by  sixliterleader 
#1 ·
Let me first start off by requesting the moderator to move this post to the appropriate forum if needed. I am posting here because it is the forum I frequent the most. I would also like to begin by letting all fellow members understand the purpose of this post. Hopefully, after reading this, MOST of you will get a better understanding of what it's like being a tech, wrenching on these animals.

From the time that I have joined this forum, as well as many other forums, I have tried to help as many fellow members as possible, regarding questions about their truck, be it technical or otherwise. I get a personal satisfaction out of being able to help anyone save TIME and MONEY because I work on these things myself, and can very clearly understand how easily anyone can end up "over-repairing" something when they are not in the know. That being said, all I ask for, is for all of you "out there" to understand that most of us working on these vehicles, really don't make a lot of money when the work being carried out is a warranty repair. As most of you are probably already aware, these engines (the 6.0L) have been pretty troublesome on A LOT of fronts since it's introduction in 2003. The high cost of the warranty claims to Ford Motor Company these engines have caused, is probably no secret to most of you by now, that it has caused the demise of the "relationship" between Ford and Navistar (the manufacturer/supplier of the 6.0L/VT365), effective December 31st/2009.

Those of you who visit this forum asking questions for diagnostic assistance on any particular subject matter, please keep a few things in mind before using the name "stealership" in your posts. Most of the techs on these forums work for "stealerships". That's where they get their information from, to share with YOU. While I will be the first person to agree that getting your ride repaired at the dealer vs. an independent garage can be quite pricey, there are many things you need to consider. #1 is that overhead operating costs are VERY high compared to independent garages. There are manufacturer specific diagnostic tools that can/will access information that more generic scan tools won't, which adds more time to the diagnostic process (and higher LABOUR HOURS CHARGED) by the independent. That being said, a good example of this being illustrated is one case I had, where an independent garage replaced ALL EIGHT injectors (at the customer's expense) only to have the problem NOT FIXED. The vehicle was brought to me afterwards, when I quickly determined it only needed a FICM. The "garage" paid the bill for the diag and replace, only to jack up the bill another 15% to the customer!!!

So, to clarify what is considered a "money maker" type job to a mechanic, let us understand how a mechanic is paid. I am sure most of you are aware that we are paid what is called "flat rate". This means we are paid by the job, NOT BY THE HOUR. So if a particular job is set to pay 2 hours, it pays 2 hours regardless of whether it takes 10 minutes to carry out, or FOUR hours to carry out. Retail brake jobs, maintenances, flushes (be it coolant transmisson, or power steering or brake fluids) are the types of jobs that are profitable for the servicing tech. These are typically considered "low skill" type jobs. Engine work, diagnostic type work (be that "Check Engine", ABS, flashing indicators, etc.), transmission repairs are typically not too profitable to the servicing tech, let alone 6.0L/6.4L diesel diagnostic. For this reason, there are very few who "specialize", and hence the shortage. In MOST cases, warranty repairs are jobs that result in a LOSS to the servicing tech, depending on how efficient/inefficient he is. This situation is not limited to FoMoCo techs either. Unfortunately, this type of pay system rewards those who "repair" vehicles the QUICKEST, as opposed to taking the proper amount of time needed to ensure a quality repair. Sad but true, and for this reason there are a lot of what we call "hacks" out there. Lastly, understand that for every $100 you pay to the dealer, the servicing tech gets only $25 of that.

One final note to those of you who bring their vehicle to the dealer "only for warranty repairs", keep one thing in mind. If a major component (engine/transmission) fails on you, and you are a "regular" paying customer that has had all your maintenance kept up to date at recommended mileages, YOU will be the ones looked after, if/when the warranty expires. This means if you are beyond your 3/36 and your engine or transmission is toasted, you will be the ones that are offered what is called a "goodwill" type repair which means the cost of the repair will be split 3 ways: the manufacturer, the dealer and you. If however, you fall under the category that warranty repairs are the only occasions for your visits, you will be the ones "pushed to the back of the bus" so to speak. This means if your vehicle sustains a major component failure after your warranty expired like the situation mentioned above, you will be on your own for the repair.

I now end this post with a few questions. Why is it that we don't question being charged $200 for having someone install our toilet, but when quoted $100 to diagnose a complex driveability problem with our vehicles, we scream "bloody murder"?
 
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#42 ·
i think some people have had bad experiences with dealerships thats why they dont like them. for instance, you bring your vehicle in and they fix what they think is wrong but it didnt fix the problem. again your being charged for something you didnt need. warranty work is warranty work. its there product and if it should fail, they should fix it when your spending $50k or more on a vehicle. im not trying to be the bad guy here, i just wanna get the other points across too. there are good dealerships and there are stealerships lol.
 
#44 ·
I am a turf equipment mechanic and have been for 25 years, and I feel your pain. While we don't get paid flat rate yet, we do get nothing but complaints when the customer gets a bill for repairs made to a piece of their equipment that they couldn't fix. But when they need some free advice, they are as nice as can be. I can really appreciate what you tech's do, as I do the same myself, just on a defferent scale. keep up the great work guys!!!
 
#46 ·
got to be the most important piece of info on the org my brothers a heavy trucks and when he gets home on the weekends people bury him asking whats wrong with thier trucks but he takes it in stride and does what he can my fellow techs thank you for all your help and advice your the guys that make this site what it is.
 
#51 ·
got to be the most important piece of info on the org. my brothers a heavy trucks and when he gets home on the weekends, people bury him asking whats wrong with thier trucks. but he takes it in stride and does what he can. my fellow techs, thank you for all your help and advice. your the guys that make this site what it is.
There. all fixed up now.
 
#49 ·
Yes very true, the dealers in my area charge about 90-100 bucks an hour, and we charge 82.37, but we are about 20 minutes from madison and rates are cheaper. But most independents are just as good as the dealer!!!!
 
#54 ·
I'm not sure WTF just happened, but I'm pretty sure I don't like it. Granted, it is a bit early in the morning, so maybe I just misread the last 2 pages. Instead of grabbing some coffee and tearing someone a new rear portal, I'm going to grab a few hours more sleep. It is Sunday after all.

Maybe I'll wake up and see that everything is sunshine and butterflies.. or maybe I'll just post my first thoughts on the last 2 pages.
I think you should read it again when you wake up again. It looks like all sunshine and butterflies to me.
 
#56 ·
:hehe:... I made my short post this morning and never even noticed what was made just before it... Oh well, Scuffy's on the job!!!
 
#60 ·
I now end this post with a few questions. Why is it that we don't question being charged $200 for having someone install our toilet, but when quoted $100 to diagnose a complex driveability problem with our vehicles, we scream "bloody murder"?
ill be honest, i always thought Dealerships were way overpriced, but have since seen that i was wrong... now knowing how you get paid, and seeing that alot of diesel techs work their fingers to the bone makes me think you arent getting enough pay.. i recently had a plumber come over to do some plumbing work, ( install water lines, and set up my lavatory drain and shower drain ), he was here for 3 1/2 hours, it cost me $620 dollars.. i thought that was a total rip off, but after comparing quotes, i found he was the cheapest.. i dont scream bloody murder when i have to pay for diagnostics.... with out diags, i wouldnt know wha the deal is with my tuck... i think its true that most if not all dealerships, will take the cost of diags off the total bill to help the customer out... i wish i lived closer to some of the techs here on the .org, i would much rather see them get the pay than the dealership.. our dealerships here will not allow the customer to talk with the techs...since i dont live near any of you, i want to find a guy i can trust with my truck but the dealers say NO!! So because of that i try to do alot of the simple maintenance myself.. ( oil, fluids, lubes) and only take it in for the more involved maintenance. so i guess that means i will end up being hosed because i am not a regular... oh well, it is what it is.. great thread Chan..... :thumb:
 
#61 ·
ill be honest, i always thought Dealerships were way overpriced, but have since seen that i was wrong... now knowing how you get paid, and seeing that alot of diesel techs work their fingers to the bone makes me think you arent getting enough pay..
Well, I'm glad to see that SOME of you understand what it's like. Yes, I won't argue that dealers in general ARE overpriced. The reason for this being the higher overhead costs associated with operating such a business. I have said this before, and I say it again, for every $100 YOU pay, we get $25. Do the math and figure out that for every $25,000 we make, the DEALER makes $75,000.
i dont scream bloody murder when i have to pay for diagnostics.... with out diags, i wouldnt know what the deal is with my tuck... i think its true that most if not all dealerships, will take the cost of diags off the total bill to help the customer out...
YES, YES and YES. If I get a vehicle in for a brake inspection, and my quote for the repair is authorized, I waive the inspection charged to the customer. If I get a job that requires diag time, I quote the cost of the diag time into the repair. If the end result is a part needing replacement that doesn't require further disassembly, the only added cost would be the cost of the part. But I'm glad you understand that. I wish there were more who would be as understanding.
great thread Chan..... :thumb:
THANK YOU:thumb:
 
#62 ·
m-chan68, this post really really makes a lot of sense. i know where your comming from on this subject, i am a tech as well i work for Cummins Central Power ( yes yes i know a cummins tech thats drives and LOVES powerstrokes!) i deal with this type of run around from errogant customers day in and day out every word out of there mouth is "this thing is junk, should have bought a cat, wish this was still a big cam IV 400 and i wouldnt be here" and on and on it goes, and it gets to a point where you want to tell them how you really feel about them and there piss poor attitude. i personally dont have any sympathy for them, its good customers as you said that come in whenever they can to have you do there work and keep you in a job as well as keeping there truck on the road, which is crucial. anyway this thread really gave me inspiration to keep giving 100% while doing my job regaurdless of the slack you may be handed. thanks and i really appreciate your tech advise, i work on 5.9L in my sleep but this is my first 6.0 (first diesel pickup actually) and its a whole different animal but im optimistic and not looking at the problems they have had. cummins arent as bullet proof as everyone thinks trust me... i know first hand.
 
#63 ·
cummins arent as bullet proof as everyone thinks trust me... i know first hand.


Thank you very much sir for saying that!! Oh since you work on trucks everyday it wont take ya long to figure out the 6.0l. I work at an independent so i struggled through the first couple and learned my lessons the hard way! But now i feel as if i have pretty good grasp on them. There is definitly a big learning curve! Thats a sharp looking truck you got there!
 
#64 ·
If it is not warranty work i rarely ever go back to a dealer. I do not mind paying the labor rate but i hate getting reamed on the parts. If i walk in off the street and need part X i am told it is 300 bucks. If i walk in and need part X for shop A it is 179 dollars. When you need 20 parts and retail is 2k and shop cost is 1300 that 700 stings. That is pure greed. I know the techs have no control over the parts mark up but that is the double whammy that keeps me and my vehicles out of the dealership.
 
#65 ·
USUALLY, and I emphasize the word usually, the parts department will work out a deal on a reduced markup in parts prices for customers with large fleet accounts in an effort to maintain business. On the service side, I've seen labour rates dropped from $100 to $80 as well, IF the customer has multiple vehicles that are regular visitors.

FWIW, I don't disagree with bringing your vehicle to a non-dealer to fix generic items such as brakes, front end and such. But for anything to do with the electronics, driveability related type issues, you are better off bringing it to the dealer in order to avoid expensive "guesses".
 
#66 ·
i agree with that being a deisel mechanic myself on the pay scale you mentioned you just helped me tremendosly a week ago with some problems that took me days to get to the bottom of mostly because im still unfamiliar with the 6.0 but not as much as i was i do now have confidence in my knowledge of the direct inject system.i apreciate the help
 
#71 ·
For the techs whinning they only get 25 dollars out of every 100 dollars of labor that is about the norn in most fields. HVAC techs, plumbing techs, computer techs on and on. The big boss or owner always gets the biggest slice of the pie.
 
#73 ·
True enough. But for the other fields you mention, how much KNOWLEDGE is required compared to that of an automotive technician? How much in out-of-pocket expenses (read: TOOLS) are required for the other fields, compared to that of an automotive technician? And I'm talking PERSONAL dollars and cents here. This is not to mention tuition fees for you folks south of the border that have to PAY for ASE certification. When you say "whining", did you take into consideration that that's 25 FLAT RATE dollars her hour? This means we aren't paid by the hour. This means we arrive on time at work, and there is no work, we get NO PAY. Yet, the majority of the general public perceives us as thieves, a*s*s*h*o*l*e*s and liars who are "living high off the hog".........NOT!!!
We are not whinning sir, we are just tired of people thinking that we are thieves.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.
 
#72 ·
We are not whinning sir, we are just tired of people thinking that we are thieves.
 
#76 ·
ok, i am not able to afford the labor and fees that the dealer charges. i do as much as i can do my self to save on it. but if its too involved, i will save up for it or charge the repair. when the independent engine shop determined that my engine had to be pulled, i was givin a quote for 3k to pull, reassemble, and drop back in. what i did was pulled it out my self, dropped the engine off and let them do what they wanted to do. and it turned out that the cyl was cracked. so now i was looking at 2k just for the repair. they did the job and i picked it up when it was done. and dropped it back in myself. so in the end all i saved was the labor on pullin it out and dropping it back in which was around 2k. not including what ive done in repairs last year that i did my self.( i think the techs at the shop dislike me cause of that ). now my trans went out. and im not touchin that. someone is gonna do that. i am buyin the ford reman and having aamco do the swap for 350 in labor and take the dead trans back to ford for the core price.

basically, what im tryin to say why should i pay the repair bill that ford gives me if i can do the repairs my self, (if able). and yes i think ford dealers are over charging. im not disputing on how much a tech gets out of a repair bill. now the parts that i have been buyin are ford brand. i havent put any aftermarkets in except the heater core and hoses.
 
#78 ·
well all i have to say is THANKS to all the techs that help us regular joes try to repair our trucks ourself.... Me myself i would love to be able to afford to just let a tech do all my work but i cant so it good to have guys like you around.... i would really like to thank m-chan68 on his own post for the help he gave me about a week ago.... he pointed me to a bad EGR valve and npw the truck runs like a champ again... THANKS
 
#79 ·
I totally agree with the tech's position. Unfortunately the term "stealership" starts on the showroom floor.
I am and have always been fully aware of the higher cost of using a dealerships service department. I also understand as everyone should that higher cost has to do with the rest of the business and not solely the service department.
I personally drive to another town to get dealer service, when there's a dealer less than a mile from me. Word of mouth prevents me from using them even though they've got a completely new diesel service department. I'd rather use a good reputable tech than a hack with all the latest gadgets.

That's all I have to say in the matter. Keep up the good work!
 
#80 ·
Well said I agree with you. You should also clarify every $100 spent on LABOR ONLY dealer techs (99%) dont make any money on parts. its important to know that this engine (the 6.0L) is different from any other engine in a truck and if you dont have a great deal of knowledge about it you CANNOT work on/repair it successfully. sure you can hang parts but that is a major cause of the rep this engine has, people who dont know what they are doing. And the 6.4L is even more tricky yet. Its sad but there are so many techs out there trying to work on these that just dont have the knowledge and worse yet they dont have the right attitude needed to find the knowledge. just my 2 cents.
 
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